AOPA Layoffs - CAPCON Killed

ATN_Pilot said:
I already explained that. A given city pair will only support a certain price point. If that price point is $300, and $50 is taxes, then the airline is only getting $250. If the taxes were only $25, then the price point that the market would support would still be $300, but the airline would be collecting $275 of it.

Airlines charge the maximum that the market will support. But that price has to include taxes and fees, since they are required to include them in the quoted price, unlike checked bag fees and other ancillary fees.
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Which they've more than made up for using those checked back fees (I use "made up for" loosely, as a dime never leaves the airlines pocket). Through taxes on tickets, airline passengers payed 8.7 million dollars in taxes to the FAA trust fund. Delta and United alone made 1.571 Billion dollars in bag fees in 2012. Billion with a B. The airlines use air travel and the air traffic infrastructure to make money. GA flying uses their aircraft as a tool to further their business and not all GA is business flying. So we pay our share into the system we all use via a tax on gasoline. This really isn't about evil rich a holes in the back of biz jets.

To get back to airlines pricing and route structure. If an airline pulls out of a route because they can't make money on it, they don't lose a thing. The consumer (the ones that pay into the FAA trust) do. So what if an airline doesn't fly a certain route, there are plenty of routes out there that are under served for good reason. There isn't any customers, not a tax structure that's too costly.

Here's where I got the fee numbers,
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/15/travel/airline-fee-revenue-increases
 
Derg said:
Umm, let's try this again please?
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Ok. Yes the by not making money on a temporary market they lose money in that one market. Thats why they call them test markets. The people most affected are the people that won't be able to ride from their small home town to Atlanta for a connection. The airline just sees it as a "profit center". They really don't care, they'd like to make some money in a location but if they can't they won't. Saying the reason for this is customers are scared off because of the tax structure is ludicrous. I'm sure if airlines could make more money if gas was free. It's not. The tax structure is the price of doing business, a price they don't pay, the consumer does. Why if this is really a "tax on airlines" aren't they lobbying congress to reduce this tax, instead of trying to make others pay more? They say they want evil corp jets to pay there "fare share". My contention is a small jet burning only 2000 pounds per hour is paying into the trust fund at a rate of $83.78 dollars per hour. In other words, their fare share. We consider this a cost of doing business. GA isn't trying to get the airlines to pay more.
 
I left AOPA after those ass hats side with the FFA on that whole Lockmart FSS cluster intercourse and turned there backs on the FSS folks, every one in ATC knew this was a looooooooozer.
 
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Seggy said:
Airlines already pay more than their fair share to the National Airspace System.

Your boss doesn't. It is bringing your boss up to pay his fair share.
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SteveC said:
Strongly disagree.
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The problem with this argument is that I haven't seen ANY numbers from a neutral third party. The only data that ATN and Seggy are looking at is the talking points from ALPA, and the corporate guys are getting theirs from NBAA.

Furthermore, could someone please define "fair share"?
 
Seggy said:
Airlines already pay more than their fair share to the National Airspace System.

Your boss doesn't. It is bringing your boss up to pay his fair share.
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Yes he does. I provided factual numbers and sources. You provide opinion. Let's see your numbers. Not taxes airline passengers pay.
 
USMCmech said:
The problem with this argument is that I haven't seen ANY numbers from a neutral third party. The only data that ATN and Seggy are looking at is the talking points from ALPA, and the corporate guys are getting theirs from NBAA.

Furthermore, could someone please define "fair share"?
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I got my number straight for the FAA overview of the Airport and Airways Trust Fund and provided factual number based on the aircraft I fly. Nothing from NBAA at all.
 
PositionAndHold said:
Which they've more than made up for using those checked back fees (I use "made up for" loosely, as a dime never leaves the airlines pocket). Through taxes on tickets, airline passengers payed 8.7 million dollars in taxes to the FAA trust fund. Delta and United alone made 1.571 Billion dollars in bag fees in 2012. Billion with a B. The airlines use air travel and the air traffic infrastructure to make money. GA flying uses their aircraft as a tool to further their business and not all GA is business flying. So we pay our share into the system we all use via a tax on gasoline. This really isn't about evil rich a holes in the back of biz jets.

To get back to airlines pricing and route structure. If an airline pulls out of a route because they can't make money on it, they don't lose a thing. The consumer (the ones that pay into the FAA trust) do. So what if an airline doesn't fly a certain route, there are plenty of routes out there that are under served for good reason. There isn't any customers, not a tax structure that's too costly.

Here's where I got the fee numbers,
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/15/travel/airline-fee-revenue-increases
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Your numbers are so far off it's laughable. Every year, the airlines pay $12 billion (with a "b") to the Trust Fund. All of general aviation, including corporate, pays $200 million (with an "m").

Sorry, but paying 1.6% of the total trust fund contributions is not your "fair share."
 
USMCmech said:
The problem with this argument is that I haven't seen ANY numbers from a neutral third party. The only data that ATN and Seggy are looking at is the talking points from ALPA, and the corporate guys are getting theirs from NBAA.

Furthermore, could someone please define "fair share"?
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ALPA provides no talking points or numbers on user fees. ALPA has no position on user fees. Try again.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Your numbers are so far off it's laughable. Every year, the airlines pay $12 billion (with a "b") to the Trust Fund. All of general aviation, including corporate, pays $200 million (with an "m").

Sorry, but paying 1.6% of the total trust fund contributions is not your "fair share."
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That's great. I pull numbers from the trust fund report on the FAA website and you come up with a number. Show your work. Again I'm not talking about what passengers pay as a tax. Show me what AirTran pays. I'm sure it's in their fillings.
 
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ATN_Pilot said:
I am. That all counts. Sorry.
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Look, I find myself agreeing with you more and more as I post on here, so this isn't one of those things. Here's the way I see it. You passengers buy a ticket. Part of that ticket is a tax to use the NAS. Your airline collects that tax. Our passengers directly buy the fuel that goes in the airplane they're flying. That fuel includes a tax so our passengers can use the NAS. If more revenue needs to be generated then those taxes need to be raised. A couple cents on passenger tax, a couple cents on fuel. As I said before, I'm sure airlines would be in every market if fuel was free, but it's not, so they're not. I'm sure we won't agree, but the difference is I care about both the airlines and GA succeeding.
 
I care about everyone succeeding, also. But if your boss can't afford to pay his fair share, then he shouldn't have a business jet. Again, 1.6% isn't fair. No one can argue with a straight face that it is.
 
If the number was done with total bodies what would the percentage be? I'm concerned as my potential aircraft now has a 17-22k cruise alt. Burns 100LL though.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I care about everyone succeeding, also. But if your boss can't afford to pay his fair share, then he shouldn't have a business jet. Again, 1.6% isn't fair. No one can argue with a straight face that it is.
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And airline passengers can afford to pay as well. If the airlines don't want their passengers to pay that tax lobby for it. Oh yeah, they won't do that because that means they'd have to pay real money, not imaginary money they could be making. The more people you move the more tax per flight should be payed. The airlines use the NAS to generate revenue, just like commercial trucking uses the roads. In your world we should all pay the same dmv fees a a commercial trucker?
 
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