Any charters DH/repo LA area to DFW Sunday or Monday?

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MikeD said:
In all honesty, would this really happen? I mean seriously? Who would make the arrests? Ive heard this fearmongering for a long while now. From my end, I guarantee you, as a fed myself, if I was told to go arrest a bunch of striking airline pilots who were on a picket line, because they had struck against the provisions of some ancient federal labor law; I'd laugh in the face of my own superiors. I can think of a few hundred better things I have to do and laws to enforce, than to be bothered with bullcrap like that, that's truly nothing more in my opinion than a civil dispute. And where the hell would we put all these hard-core federal felons....in concentration camps? :)

Being arrested for refusing to go to work. I just don't see it happening in any sort reality-based thinking. And the fact that anyone.....especially educated white-collar labor like airline pilots....should even remotely fear this happening, is laughable at best. And really makes me wonder how gullible they are. Sure...it's a law. But its unenforceable in the real world. Sounds great on paper though.
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Or they can arrest a select few labor leaders and/or fine individuals on the picket lines and/or unions millions of dollars.
 
Seggy said:
Or they can arrest a select few labor leaders and/or fine individuals on the picket lines and/or unions millions of dollars.
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They can try, but it wouldn't fly (no pun intended). This is a law that's really a paper tiger when/if it was ever put to the test. And like is always said, numbers will win you. Unity will win you. I honestly believe that. If all pilots got sick of it one day and said to hell with it and struck, the resultant chaos in airline travel would have to be resolved immediately. There wouldn't be enough available scabs to cover the flying; arresting everyone would be economically/logistically/politically unfeasible; fines would take forever to litigate; and unlike the PATCO strike, you wouldn't be able to bring in the USAF C-5s/C-17s/C-130s to fly civilian pax on domestic/international airline routes. Basically speaking, labor has all the advantage here.
 
MikeD said:
They can try, but it wouldn't fly (no pun intended). This is a law that's really a paper tiger when/if it was ever put to the test. And like is always said, numbers will win you. Unity will win you. I honestly believe that. If all pilots got sick of it one day and said to hell with it and struck, the resultant chaos in airline travel would have to be resolved immediately.
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Why don't you explain that to the MTA Union leaders in NY? @ATN_Pilot, care to step in?
 
Seggy said:
Why don't you explain that to the MTA Union leaders in NY? @ATN_Pilot, care to step in?
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I just can't see it happening in any reality. Simply because the chaos of a major strike would have to be solved now....it wouldn't be able to wait. Taking any kind of punitive action takes away the pilots needed to fly. Doing anything else, takes time.

The King really has no clothes here. No one has wanted to test the system though, because everyone is living under fear of the own government.

People here talk of civil disobedience being needed here and there. Maybe it's time for some here?

Like the button in the cockpit says on it: "Press To Test".
 
@MikeD leaders of union groups would be arrested in short order. Secondly, the union that is protecting the pilots would be fined into oblivion. APA, ALPA, Etc. have all been threatened by judges across the country on this.

The other problem I see is, you as well as many of my coworkers, view our job as white collar. Hate to say it, but we aren't. We have a defined skill set and work hard to get there but it's a blue collar job.
 
amorris311 said:
@MikeD leaders of union groups would be arrested in short order. Secondly, the union that is protecting the pilots would be fined into oblivion. APA, ALPA, Etc. have all been threatened by judges across the country on this.

The other problem I see is, you as well as many of my coworkers, view our job as white collar. Hate to say it, but we aren't. We have a defined skill set and work hard to get there but it's a blue collar job.
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That's how I was using it......"White collar" in terms professional skill set, is what I was referring to, not necessarily in terms of $$$ you make or don't make. To be clear. I agree with you.

Still, with this never having been "pressed to test" in any sort of true reality, do we honestly know what would really happen? The chaos that come from it that would have to be fixed NOW, would take too much time. The above you mention regarding fines, judges, arrests.....it's just not feasible. For every union leader who happens to get arrested, another immediately steps into his place. What are they really going to do, arrest him too? And the next? And the next? This would be the ultimate in civil disobediance thats for a good cause.

I hear the doom and gloom that you write of and that people believe, but I honestly wonder if it isn't more than an empty threat that has been successful in keeping union pilots in-check. Numbers, need for essential service here and now, and no replacement available (unlike the PATCO strike); all put the cards in your deck, figuratively speaking.
 
MikeD said:
That's how I was using it......"White collar" in terms professional skill set, is what I was referring to, not necessarily in terms of $$$ you make or don't make. To be clear. I agree with you.

Still, with this never having been "pressed to test" in any sort of true reality, do we honestly know what would really happen? The chaos that come from it that would have to be fixed NOW, would take too much time. The above you mention regarding fines, judges, arrests.....it's just not feasible. For every union leader who happens to get arrested, another immediately steps into his place. What are they really going to do, arrest him too? And the next? And the next? This would be the ultimate in civil disobediance thats for a good cause.

I hear the doom and gloom that you write of and that people believe, but I honestly wonder if it isn't more than an empty threat that has been successful in keeping union pilots in-check. Numbers, need for essential service here and now, and no replacement available (unlike the PATCO strike); all put the cards in your deck, figuratively speaking.
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Ok. The latest big issue that I can remember stems from the "sick out" incident with UAL. People were not only fired but a large fine was levied on ALPA for this incident. Flights were cancelled and a lot of delays occurred during the busy holiday season. Laws don't support labor. They haven't for the past two decades. Unless there is a fundamental change they won't for the foreseeable future.
 
amorris311 said:
Ok. The latest big issue that I can remember stems from the "sick out" incident with UAL. People were not only fired but a large fine was levied on ALPA for this incident. Flights were cancelled and a lot of delays occurred during the busy holiday season. Laws don't support labor. They haven't for the past two decades. Unless there is a fundamental change they won't for the foreseeable future.
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And thats unfortunate. Labor has some honest battles, without having to have ancient laws working against them. Could the problem with the UAL incident have been that it wasn't large and forceful enough, therefore ineffective from the outset? If multiple pilot groups (purely hypothetical) colluded to all formally and publicall strike, without release, and all did it one day and kept to it (unheard of unity, I know); then the effects I mention could really be seen, I believe. Just some interesting thinking. Talk about throwing a real monkey wrench into the whole system! :)
 
MikeD said:
And thats unfortunate. Labor has some honest battles, without having to have ancient laws working against them. Could the problem with the UAL incident have been that it wasn't large and forceful enough, therefore ineffective from the outset? If multiple pilot groups (purely hypothetical) colluded to all formally and publicall strike, without release, and all did it one day and kept to it (unheard of unity, I know); then the effects I mention could really be seen, I believe. Just some interesting thinking. Talk about throwing a real monkey wrench into the whole system! :)
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Oh I'm sure you're right. Hell our European brothers and sisters do it all the time! I like the idea of one day strikes sprinkled in over a busy season. That gets a lot of managers attention because of the losses they take from just one day of not operating.
 
@MikeD, the past legal precedent which we see here...

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19990416&slug=2955519

...shows that a union can and will be held liable for financial penalties if the workers engage in legal job actions. Notice the fine was greater than APA assets. That was purposeful as it would bankrupt the union.

Soooo, I am not sure what you are trying to say, but the law is VERY clear.
 
Seggy said:
@MikeD, the past legal precedent which we see here...

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19990416&slug=2955519

...shows that a union can and will be held liable for financial penalties if the workers engage in legal job actions. Notice the fine was greater than APA assets. That was purposeful as it would bankrupt the union.

Soooo, I am not sure what you are trying to say, but the law is VERY clear.
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I agree with you that it's law. And sure, the law can push financial penalities. Try and hit the pocketbook. Still that takes time to do, far more time than damage from a full walkout would cause. But Im moreso talking about people worrying about being hauled off to jail for an illegal labor action like this. Im just saying I'd like to see the government actually try arresting the nations mass of airline pilots, even the ones in key union positions, for civil disobedience such as this. Because that would only make any kind of problems from a mass walkout worse, rather than better. Would just be interesting to see a solid line like that holding firm.....see what would really come of it.
 
BobDDuck said:
Nobody called him a scab.
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Ok, then allow me: he's a SCAB. He made the decision to SCAB. He came on this forum and told everyone that he had made the decision to SCAB. He was all geared up to walk across the picket line, and had even justified it in his own mind as some sort of noble decision. The only thing that stopped him was the fact that the strike was canceled!
 
Mike, this isn't theoretical. It's happened in the real world. MTA union leaders thrown into the slammer. Had the strike dragged on, more would have been thrown in, until the union caved. This isn't some fanciful imagined issue. It's reality.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Mike, this isn't theoretical. It's happened in the real world. MTA union leaders thrown into the slammer. Had the strike dragged on, more would have been thrown in, until the union caved. This isn't some fanciful imagined issue. It's reality.
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There has to be more power to the labor side to affect something like this, if not only for sheer numbers. As I was saying, so a few guys get thrown in the slammer, others step into their place, and so on and so forth. If the entire system came to a screeching halt, the government could throw every single airline pilot on the strike line and the entire union from the president to the janitor, into jail; and all the government would be doing is shooting themselves in their own foot and making the situation 100x worse than it already is. It appears that ultimately, the cards would be in the deck of labor IF labor decided as a unified whole, to not only take an illegal action, but do it full-court-press, across the board, and not look back until they get what they want.

Everything would come to a screeching halt, for reasons I've already mentioned. No replacements available, services needed now with no time to spare, etc, etc.

Could you honestly imagine? It would take serious, serious "we're going for broke" committment. But I could only see something like this happening, if things were truly bad for labor. Apparently, they're not to that point yet. But who knows.......push someone far enough....
 
Seggy said:
Once you made a decision to cross the line and post it in a very public manner, to a bunch of guys whom had their jobs threatened at various times because of union beliefs...
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I think I must be misunderstanding you. Don't you mean "in spite of union beliefs?" Seems to me the unions are the ones trying to save the well paid pilot jobs.
 
Mike, the whole reason they do it is because throwing the first few in jail is all it takes to break everyone else's spirit. When the first few get thrown in jail and the judge issues a huge monetary judgment, some of the strikers are willing to keep going, and a few even step up to take the lead. But then they get thrown in the slammer the next day, and then everyone gets really scared and the whole thing is pretty much over. You just can't keep the solidarity up when it's clear that anyone who steps up is going to jail, and the union is going to go bankrupt from the fines. And from a pragmatic standpoint, once the union is bankrupted, you might as well not even be striking anymore, because there isn't a union to sign and enforce a CBA even if a deal could be reached.

The reality is, where government has made striking illegal, there is no leverage, no matter how much unity you think you have. The government is always going to beat you.
 
Crop Duster said:
I think I must be misunderstanding you. Don't you mean "in spite of union beliefs?" Seems to me the unions are the ones trying to save the well paid pilot jobs.
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No, you misunderstand. Some of us have actually been fired because of our support for trade unionism, and others have been threatened with being fired.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Mike, the whole reason they do it is because throwing the first few in jail is all it takes to break everyone else's spirit. When the first few get thrown in jail and the judge issues a huge monetary judgment, some of the strikers are willing to keep going, and a few even step up to take the lead. But then they get thrown in the slammer the next day, and then everyone gets really scared and the whole thing is pretty much over. You just can't keep the solidarity up when it's clear that anyone who steps up is going to jail, and the union is going to go bankrupt from the fines. And from a pragmatic standpoint, once the union is bankrupted, you might as well not even be striking anymore, because there isn't a union to sign and enforce a CBA even if a deal could be reached.

The reality is, where government has made striking illegal, there is no leverage, no matter how much unity you think you have. The government is always going to beat you.
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That's depressing to hear. Labor has some real issues that deserve a real soapbox to be aired from. On some key issues, I would think that there may be a time where there may come a breaking point, if not resolved through "legal" means, when the legal means are already engineered to work against labor. At that time, who knows......maybe a macro-level civil disobedience may very well occur. :)
 
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