Who/What are we going to blame the next one on?

Gonzo said:
Rant On



What I have been hearing from the CA I have been flying with and what I have seen sitting in the jumpseats makes me very scared to ride/put family on flights I am not flying or don't know the crew. I am not saying I am god gift to aviation, in fact if anyone knows me I am closer to hack then Yeager on the scale of piloting. That makes it even worse when my last few CA have thanked me for not being a d-bag and being a good FO (Being an FO at Eagle is the easiest job in the world you would have to work harder at being a bad FO then a good one). Based on what I have seen sitting in the jumpseat I believe it, is it really that hard to fly an airplane like a professional and act like a professional be it a CA or FO. If some of the guys I have seen care as much about how they acted and flew as they look, they would be great professional pilots. I am sure mainline has their share of unprofessional idiots but I haven't seen it to the level like I have heard and seen over the last few months.
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Care to elaborate on what makes you scared or what you saw that was so unprofessional?

In my short career as a first officer the worst I saw was a CA who answered his cell phone on short final (he was the pilot flying) and another CA that listened to his iPod the whole flight.
 
TheFlyingTurkey said:
Care to elaborate on what makes you scared or what you saw that was so unprofessional?

In my short career as a first officer the worst I saw was a CA who answered his cell phone on short final (he was the pilot flying) and another CA that listened to his iPod the whole flight.
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*Zero checklist discipline
*Not briefing anything then looking at me when I say something because they are messing up
*Landing 5K-6K down the runway
*No understanding of how the WX radar works
*Being rude to FAs (They are part of the crew and it gives a clue about how you view you other co-workers)
*Not keeping DX in the loop.
*Being heavy handed on the controls and flying it like you are at an air show
*Having no clue what needs to get done with the crew has to deal with stuff. (Reroute in flight/ground everyone should know want needs to get done one guy shouldn't be doing all the work or having to tell the other guy what needs to be done.
*Sitting in the jumpseat (Not my airline) going home and there is a ton of WX in the ATL area. ATC tells the plane I am in the Delta 80 30 miles in front split the line by going to SHANE. They pull up SHANE and it has them going through a big cell. I poop you not they look at the radar and the FO said to the CA "ATC said it work for Delta you want to give it a go" Thank god the CA looked at him like he was an idiot and told him hell no, but one day that FO is going to be a CA. The FO had been at the airline for three years all on the jet.
This is just a few of the things I have seen in the last few months.
 
Gonzo said:
*Zero checklist discipline
*Not briefing anything then looking at me when I say something because they are messing up
*Landing 5K-6K down the runway
*No understanding of how the WX radar works
*Being rude to FAs (They are part of the crew and it gives a clue about how you view you other co-workers)
*Not keeping DX in the loop.
*Being heavy handed on the controls and flying it like you are at an air show
*Having no clue what needs to get done with the crew has to deal with stuff. (Reroute in flight/ground everyone should know want needs to get done one guy shouldn't be doing all the work or having to tell the other guy what needs to be done.
*Sitting in the jumpseat (Not my airline) going home and there is a ton of WX in the ATL area. ATC tells the plane I am in the Delta 80 30 miles in front split the line by going to SHANE. They pull up SHANE and it has them going through a big cell. I poop you not they look at the radar and the FO said to the CA "ATC said it work for Delta you want to give it a go" Thank god the CA looked at him like he was an idiot and told him hell no, but one day that FO is going to be a CA. The FO had been at the airline for three years all on the jet.
This is just a few of the things I have seen in the last few months.
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I'd say text me and let me know who you were on, but it's getting restored now so it's out of commission for a bit.
 
I guess I'll be the witch in church on this one. Do what you feel is right, obviously, as that's also none of my business. But me, I don't want to work in a climate of fear and informants. One thing I know for sure: I know a whole lot less about everything than I used to think I did.
 
Gonzo said:
*Zero checklist discipline
*Not briefing anything then looking at me when I say something because they are messing up
*Landing 5K-6K down the runway
*No understanding of how the WX radar works
*Being rude to FAs (They are part of the crew and it gives a clue about how you view you other co-workers)
*Not keeping DX in the loop.
*Being heavy handed on the controls and flying it like you are at an air show
*Having no clue what needs to get done with the crew has to deal with stuff. (Reroute in flight/ground everyone should know want needs to get done one guy shouldn't be doing all the work or having to tell the other guy what needs to be done.
*Sitting in the jumpseat (Not my airline) going home and there is a ton of WX in the ATL area. ATC tells the plane I am in the Delta 80 30 miles in front split the line by going to SHANE. They pull up SHANE and it has them going through a big cell. I poop you not they look at the radar and the FO said to the CA "ATC said it work for Delta you want to give it a go" Thank god the CA looked at him like he was an idiot and told him hell no, but one day that FO is going to be a CA. The FO had been at the airline for three years all on the jet.
This is just a few of the things I have seen in the last few months.
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I can honestly say I see 90% of these on a weekly basis. And this is all the CAs doing it. Most don't care about the smoothness in which they fly. Most don't ever want to be proactive in reviewing alternates and possibly looking for additional and maybe more suitable airports to use as alternates. Overall worthlessness on being a CA but love to always make comments on how you (the FO) do things. I am absolutely sick of CAs making me feel stupid for an idea I've brought up, or a reason I have for doing something, or any general suggestion I may have. I don't know if they are just that insecure...or dare to "take the advice of an FO" or what, but it has gotten out of hand lately. And it is not with the new CAs but mid level ones. The senior ones have checked out and just let you do your thing, and the junior ones know you know how to do your job after 6yrs and generally leave you alone. The mid seniority ones seem to have the biggest egos. I am fairly certain I am not the problem d-bag as there are a bunch of "good to great" CAs that to me have zero ego and work well as a team. Who knows...maybe I'm just being Sally sensitive...
 
It sounds like there are quite a few "wont happen to me" "what are the odds" and "I see others do it" egos going on. Just because we have a relatively good safety record, that is no excuse to ease up on the fundamentals of being safe a pilot.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I guess I'll be the witch in church on this one. Do what you feel is right, obviously, as that's also none of my business. But me, I don't want to work in a climate of fear and informants. One thing I know for sure: I know a whole lot less about everything than I used to think I did.
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I've talked to Gonzo about exactly what he rants. Of course, I have no good answers, or anything valuable to add.

What I have noticed flying with 121-folk, lots of complacency, especially when they are near an airport VMC, not looking at all for traffic, and very poor stick and rudder 101 stuff. These have been the never-CFI, career-focus types mostly.

DPApilot and Rocketman99 do actually know what they are doing as best I can tell. Gonzo is still afraid to fly with me :)
 
Boris Badenov said:
I guess I'll be the witch in church on this one. Do what you feel is right, obviously, as that's also none of my business. But me, I don't want to work in a climate of fear and informants. One thing I know for sure: I know a whole lot less about everything than I used to think I did.
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That's why we have pro standards...it's so there's no risk and allows for an adjustment of attitude before and accident.
 
Yeah, maybe I just don't understand 121. That's a real possibility. Under 135, I flew with at least one C/A who I thought was borderline dangerous on occasion. And stories from other F/Os I was flying with once I was a C/A kind of backed that up. But here's the thing...he'd been flying for 30+ years and hadn't crashed or killed anybody yet. If there had been a pro standards process, I probably would have gone to it, but of course there wasn't. And no way I jeaprodize a guy's entire career because I have some problems with how he does business. Yeah, I thought he was being dumb a bit, but he had at least twice my experience.

So that's the one thing...I'm a required crew member and a guy I'm flying with is doing stuff that isn't just "not what I would do", but also seems obviously and repeatedly against SOPs/FARs/whatever, and legitimately dangerous to boot. I probably (reluctantly) talk to pro standards about it. But as a jump seater? You're there because the C/A did you a favor and helped you out. If he's not openly planning Jihad, I just say "thanks" and shake my head.
 
Except as a JS you become a crew member and can have liability for not acting in an apparently dangerous environment. (am I correct on the Derg ?
 
Bumblebee said:
Except as a JS you become a crew member and can have liability for not acting in an apparently dangerous environment. (am I correct on the Derg ?
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*shrug*. If I were the PIC on an aircraft that had a jumpseat, the first time I heard a story about the C/A getting cashiered because a jumpseater didn't like what he was doing, I'd just put some yellow tape over the jumpseat for the rest of time. Dangerous road to go down. Sez me, anyway.

I mean, obviously, yes, if you're in fear for your life, speak up! But eating cheese? No. Not me, anyway. Where does that end?
 
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