Pressing "Start" on the timer when shooting an ILS

Hacker15e said:
There has also in that same time period been a dramatic increase in the mechanical safety and reliability of the aircraft themselves, along with advances in avionics that have improved navigation precision, weather awareness, etc.

None of these things is individually responsible, nor do they exist in a vacuum: they are all part of an inter-dependent ecology that have all together reduced the accident rate.
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My friend, I fly junk designed in the late 1970s. :)

Airline safety culture has done tremendous things for air safety. It's conservative. It's boring. We operate well inside the envelope. That's why it's safer than every other mode of transport.
 
Hacker15e said:
There has also in that same time period been a dramatic increase in the mechanical safety and reliability of the aircraft themselves, along with advances in avionics that have improved navigation precision, weather awareness, etc.

None of these things is individually responsible, nor do they exist in a vacuum: they are all part of an inter-dependent ecology that have all together reduced the accident rate.
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Taken a look at the Delta ramp lately? I can assure, 1960s technology is still alive and well in the airline industry. :)
 
Always a disconcerting feeling to realize that I fly a single engine 135 machine with more avionics power than a 121 ship. With the EFIS we have a GS or even a full GS/LOC failure is a non event as the approach overlay is depicted as nice skyway boxes based on GPS data and provides lateral and vertical guidance all the way to the runway.
 
Capt. Chaos said:
Always a disconcerting feeling to realize that I fly a single engine 135 machine with more avionics power than a 121 ship. With the EFIS we have a GS or even a full GS/LOC failure is a non event as the approach overlay is depicted as nice skyway boxes based on GPS data and provides lateral and vertical guidance all the way to the runway.
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Nice Van. ;) On the locks!
 
I got tired of reading this crap after about 8 pages. I'm unaware of a reg requires you to go around when the GS goes away. It may exist, I've never seen it and no one has ever actually pounted it out Anytime I've ever briefed an instrument approach in actual IFR and there's been timing available, I've always briefed backup timing for transition to LOC. I find the idea of executing a missed just becase you just lost the GS to be ridiculous.

For those stuck on the safety tip, how many times have you ever had an unexpected missed approach/go around actually go smoothly? I haven't seen it yet in 12 years. I would far rather just continue what I'm doing down to the non-precision altutude and land if the runway is there. I personally think an unplanned missed has far greater potential for things to go wrong. Obviously, YMMV and frankly, I don't care. You flying we do it your way, I'm flying we do it mine. :)
 
Rocketman99 said:
I got tired of reading this crap after about 8 pages. I'm unaware of a reg requires you to go around when the GS goes away. It may exist, I've never seen it and no one has ever actually pounted it out Anytime I've ever briefed an instrument approach in actual IFR and there's been timing available, I've always briefed backup timing for transition to LOC. I find the idea of executing a missed just becase you just lost the GS to be ridiculous.

For those stuck on the safety tip, how many times have you ever had an unexpected missed approach/go around actually go smoothly? I haven't seen it yet in 12 years. I would far rather just continue what I'm doing down to the non-precision altutude and land if the runway is there. I personally think an unplanned missed has far greater potential for things to go wrong. Obviously, YMMV and frankly, I don't care. You flying we do it your way, I'm flying we do it mine. :)
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This thread has no doubt been beat half to death, but what about an approach like this, with a couple stepdowns inside the FAF? We'll say you lost the glideslope at 1300' MSL:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1211/00237IL24L.PDF

It can surely be done, but I don't feel an unplanned missed has near the same potential for an error (and really, I've never seen an unplanned missed get substantially out of hand).

Credit to Polar742 for passing this one along.
 
There's only one stepdown inside the FAF on that approach. If you're trucking along on a 3* glideslope with appropriate descent rate based on your groundspeed and maintain that descent rate it should be a non-issue as you woudl still be above the stepdown. I'm not a fan of diving down to the stepdown/MDA then continuing to the next section, I try to use a calculated descent rate and generally ever so slightly more than stadard 3*. If it happens to be an approach where your descent has taken you below the stepdown, go ahead and execute that missed approach. I don't get the difficulty. My goal is to avoid significant extra work of having to go around. It cuts into the 2 minutes I usually have to grab a coffee or something to eat after 3 legs of delays and quick turns all day. :)
 
Capt. Chaos said:
Always a disconcerting feeling to realize that I fly a single engine 135 machine with more avionics power than a 121 ship. With the EFIS we have a GS or even a full GS/LOC failure is a non event as the approach overlay is depicted as nice skyway boxes based on GPS data and provides lateral and vertical guidance all the way to the runway.
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Chelton EFIS - for the win! I like that system better than anything else I've ever used. The little Aspen PFD comes comes close, but not close enough.
 
Rocketman99 said:
I got tired of reading this crap after about 8 pages. I'm unaware of a reg requires you to go around when the GS goes away. It may exist, I've never seen it and no one has ever actually pounted it out Anytime I've ever briefed an instrument approach in actual IFR and there's been timing available, I've always briefed backup timing for transition to LOC. I find the idea of executing a missed just becase you just lost the GS to be ridiculous.

For those stuck on the safety tip, how many times have you ever had an unexpected missed approach/go around actually go smoothly? I haven't seen it yet in 12 years. I would far rather just continue what I'm doing down to the non-precision altutude and land if the runway is there. I personally think an unplanned missed has far greater potential for things to go wrong. Obviously, YMMV and frankly, I don't care. You flying we do it your way, I'm flying we do it mine. :)
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No such thing as an unexpected missed approach or go-around right? I mean, realistically, I brief to myself what I'm going to do "in the event of a missed," to include thinking (in a crew I usually don't say it, guys look at you funny ;) )"alright, mixtures, props, throttles (or props full forward, power as required in turbine equipment) full forward, flaps 15, positive rate of climb, gear up, flaps up when appropriate, after takeoff check." It's easy to forget, and I used to bungle through a missed until I started rehearsing in my head what I was going to do. Yes we don't go to a missed that often, but it should be cemented in your mind as one of only a few possible outcomes.
 
Not that I really care how anyone flies this stuff outside of my operation, but it drives me crazy when I recall stuff and can't recall the source.

I vaguely recall some tie-in with CFIT, but can't source it. Boeing's Flight Crew Training manual was where I found the loss of flight equipment/navaid or full deflection on an ILS of either G/S or LOC.
 
I queried a couple old time airline pilots we have at this flight school. Captain A is ~70 years old with 30k+ hours. Captain B 80 years old with 30k+ hours.

Q: In the airlines have you ever or do you ever brief the LOC as an option should you lose the glide slope:

Capt A: I have never done this.

Capt B: Always, and I teach this.

Q: Do you time an ILS approach regardless?

Unanimous yes. Reasoning of both was for backup.

Q: In your opinion is the LOC transition unsafe.

Obviously we know Capt B's answer. Capt A says, "Absolutely not! As long as you've briefed it. It's but one extra number and one different first instruction for the missed, if they are even different."


I also asked an ex USAF guy here. Interestingly his response was to just go missed. He'd never heard of briefing the transition/flex to LOC in the event of a glide slope failure.


Interesting topic though. I was trained to brief a transition to LOC and I was taught to always time any approach. So long as you briefed it and don't have to reprogram your airplane, I can't come up with a logical reason why it's less safe.

PS Sorry if I offended any of you guys with my first stab at this post. Any of you who know me know I get worked up pretty easy, but it's all in heated debate. I don't mean to speak ill of, or offend, any of you.
 
Polar742 said:
I vaguely recall some tie-in with CFIT, but can't source it. Boeing's Flight Crew Training manual was where I found the loss of flight equipment/navaid or full deflection on an ILS of either G/S or LOC.
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If there's any chance you can find that online or in a way it could be posted, I'd really like to see it Martin.
 
It is just what I said. Boeing's Flight Crew Training Manual under Mandatory Missed Approach.

The other thing is the 744 and 748 remain locked on the G/S until TOGA is hit, or both FDs are cycled, simultaneously. Yes, it creates as much of a goat rope on PAR breakouts as imagined.
 
Polar742 said:
The other thing is the 744 and 748 remain locked on the G/S until TOGA is hit, or both FDs are cycled, simultaneously. Yes, it creates as much of a goat rope on PAR breakouts as imagined.
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Same on the 767...Have no idea why Boeing locks you into approach mode like that.
 
It's for autoland requirments, so a single failure or a fat finger doesn't effect a safe outcome.
 
Interesting. That pretty much nullifies any debate about it for those planes. Yeah, I can imagine the level of charlie foxtrot on a PAR breakout with that setup!
 
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