AA TA?

[Seggy]

Did you read what Judge Lane had to say about the sick time?

What did he say about it?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

We should consider the possibility that the judge intentionally issued such a draconian opinion with the intent of forcing the APA into bargaining to a consensual deal. After all, judges don't like to get involved in this stuff if they can possibly avoid it.

 

[jtrain609]

We should consider the possibility that the judge intentionally issued such a draconian opinion with the intent of forcing the APA into bargaining to a consensual deal. After all, judges don't like to get involved in this stuff if they can possibly avoid it.

I think that's a really horrible idea, being that he spends the majority of the 100 page opinion agreeing with amr.

 

[Gonzo]

What did he say about it?

e) Sick Leave
The use of sick leave by American’s pilots has increased by 60% since 2000, and in
2011, the average pilot was paid 78.4 hours of sick leave, more than one month’s worth of
flying. (Newgren Decl. ¶ 157). American’s pilots also use more sick leave than any of their
network airline peers. (Newgren Decl. ¶ 157; AA Ex. 1302). Under the March 21 Proposal,
pilots will receive 100% of their hourly base rate for the first two occurrences of sick leave taken
in a year (or 36 hours, whichever occurs first). (Newgren Decl. ¶ 162; AA Ex. 1733). Under
most circumstances, a pilot will be able to return to work without providing substantiation.
(Newgren Decl. ¶ 162; AA Ex. 1733). Additional sick occurrences would be paid at 60% of
their hourly base rate, but the pilot will be required to provide adequate medical substantiation.
(Newgren Decl. ¶ 163; AA Ex. 1733).
The APA notes that three separate labor arbitrators have ruled that the disciplinary
provisions of the current pilot collective bargaining agreement provide American with sufficient
procedures to identify potential misuse of sick leave. (Roghair Decl. ¶56; APA Exs. 419–422).
It argues that the proposal will pressure pilots to fly when they are unwell and unable to do so,
putting the pilots, the flight attendants and the public at risk. (Roghair Decl. ¶57).
The Court finds that the Company’s proposed changes are a reasonable way to address
the extremely large amount of sick leave and the costs imposed on the Company, which totaled
$88.6 million for 2011 alone. (Newgren Decl. ¶ 157). The pilots’ use of sick leave is the highest
amongst American’s network peers and its costs must be controlled for the Company to remain
competitive. The Court does not credit the APA’s contention that pilots would fly when they are
too unwell to do so. American’s pilots are highly trained and disciplined professionals, and the
Court does not believe they would put themselves, the flight attendants and the public at such
11-15463-shl Doc 4044 Filed 08/15/12 Entered 08/15/12 17:44:35 Main Document
Pg 79 of 111

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risk. Furthermore, there are checks in place to deal with pilots who report to work too ill to fly.

 

[Seggy]

wow

 

[Seggy]

Done

 

[Autothrust Blue]

He believes by bailing out for greener pastures in the short term he's insulated himself from the long-term ramifications of the industry shifts over time. Apparently, anyways.

Only time will tell.

Don't you though? You want a job at a mainline carrier one day, right?

Just like everyone else...

 

[Firebird2XC]

Only time will tell.

Just like everyone else...

Aye, sir. For what it's worth, I hope it works out for you. As for me, I'm starting to feel that restless twinge that tells me something had better happen quick or I'm going to make it happen.

 

[Rage Against The Machine]

It's better to have the judge impose the new contract than sign a 10 YEAR DEAL full of concessions from the WORST MANAGEMENT in Aviation history.
Once AA is out of bankruptcy then you start with a new contract ...! The imposed contract only lasts while the company is in Bankruptcy.

Regarding SCOPE, they won't be buying any 88 seaters .. for the reasons I stated above.

 

[jtrain609]

It's better to have the judge impose the new contract than sign a 10 YEAR DEAL full of concessions from the WORST MANAGEMENT in Aviation history.
Once AA is out of bankruptcy then you start with a new contract ...! The imposed contract only lasts while the company is in Bankruptcy.

Regarding SCOPE, they won't be buying any 88 seaters .. for the reasons I stated above.

Really?

Tell United and Continental pilots that one. I'm sure that's why CAL pilots have horrible pay rates, train on days off and have worse PBS rules than most regionals.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

It's better to have the judge impose the new contract than sign a 10 YEAR DEAL full of concessions from the WORST MANAGEMENT in Aviation history.
Once AA is out of bankruptcy then you start with a new contract ...! The imposed contract only lasts while the company is in Bankruptcy.

If this is the "logic" that the APA is using to make their decisions, then the AMR pilots are screwed. First, bankruptcy could easily drag out for another 2+ years. So you've got that amount of time to start with. Then, with management having absolutely ZERO incentive to bargain towards a consensual deal after exiting bankruptcy, negotiations could drag out for 5+ years after that. So, you're probably looking at a minimum of 5 years under the imposed terms, and likely a lot longer. Many of your pilots will retire in that time frame, and others will be approaching retirement by the end, so a whole hell of a lot of AMR pilots stand to benefit absolutely nothing from such a strategy. The remaining pilots will be at severe risk of furlough due to the imposed scope and code share language. So really, no one stands to benefit from this deranged strategy. Negotiating to a consensual deal is the only logical move here.

Regarding SCOPE, they won't be buying any 88 seaters .. for the reasons I stated above.

Oh no, they'll jump on that opportunity as soon as the chance presents itself. Once the planes are flying for AMR, it's next to impossible to get rid of them, and that's exactly what they want. They'll get as many as they can, and then when it comes time for you to negotiate a new deal, they'll claim that your demands to get rid of the outsourced 88-seaters are unreasonable. The NMB will sympathize with them, and getting a release over scope is illegal, so the leverage derived from the possibility of a release will never come. If the APA stood their ground on that demand, the NMB would likely park negotiations, and negotiations could drag out indefinitely. Once the scope is gone, the scope is gone. There are opportunities to recapture some limited scope, such as what DALPA recently accomplished, but it's a rare opportunity, and it's usually limited to just low-hanging fruit, not big shifts away from outsourcing.

 

[DL31082]

The incentive to reach a deal is the creditors. I would think having such a large labor group without a long term contract would make creditors and investors nervous.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The incentive to reach a deal is the creditors. I would think having such a large labor group without a long term contract would make creditors and investors nervous.

You would think so. But not so much.

 

[Shiner]

I'm a newbie when it comes to following these contract negotiations. I don't know how scope has grown from 19 seats up to where it has today.

My question is about this BK move by AMR. Has scope been negotiated through bankruptcy like this before? It seems like the pilots have no way to control this and keep the flying with the majors if airlines are allowed to create a bankruptcy and make huge gains on scope.

I don't want to be a career RJ driver and moves like this scare me away from playing the 121 game.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Getting scope concessions in bankruptcy is really how the game has been played for the past decade. The original scope concessions were minor and mostly restricted to limited numbers of 50-seat jets and turboprops. For example, prior to 9/11, USAirways allowed only 50 jets to be outsourced, and they couldn't be bigger than 50 seats. Delta allowed 70-seaters, but only 57 of them. After 9/11, though, it all changed. Managements sought concessions through the bankruptcy courts, and with the current bankruptcy laws, the leverage is not on labor's side. But it's important to note that what's going on with AMR is really just a delayed reaction. This is something that should have happened 7-8 years ago, but AMR was the lone network carrier that avoided bankruptcy. It bit them in the ass, because all of their competition restructured and lowered their costs while AMR's costs only reduced slightly through consensual agreements with their employees. With the pensions still intact, it was all destined to come crashing down eventually.

Personally, I'm not worried about another wave of bankruptcies, unless another 9/11 occurs. And although the part 121 game has its share of risks, so does the part 91 game. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Aye, sir. For what it's worth, I hope it works out for you. As for me, I'm starting to feel that restless twinge that tells me something had better happen quick or I'm going to make it happen.

uh, yeah, what algorithm did you use to arrive at that conclusion, sir?


This post is brought to you by Beta. Beta: chicks dig it.

 

[Seggy]

As for me, I'm starting to feel that restless twinge that tells me something had better happen quick or I'm going to make it happen.

What the heck are you talking about?

 

[Rage Against The Machine]

AMR needs to negotiate with the APA .. if they don't NOTHING can get done. (Regarding mergers etc. etc.) AMR can't simply say OK we'll stop all negotiations and just have the term sheet for the next 100 years, it doesn't work like that, especially when you have a pilot group that will do whatever it takes to take you down. AMR wants a contract with the APA before exiting BK, this is a fact. Unfortunately for them, they are dealing with a group of people that have taken enough of their BS since 2003.

DL31082 is absolutely right when he says that creditors/investors will get turned away without a Pilot contract.

 

[Firebird2XC]

What the heck are you talking about?

I'm getting restless slinging gear for idiots. I've flown with a lot of great guys, but lately I've been somehow bidding into lines with some real toolbags. I'm ready to either A) upgrade or B) move on to bigger and better things entirely. I need a new challenge- I'm bored.

 

[Firebird2XC]

uh, yeah, what algorithm did you use to arrive at that conclusion, sir?


This post is brought to you by Beta. Beta: chicks dig it.

*squints* Shaddup, hippie.