Pinnacle 1113 Term Sheet to the Pilots

kellwolf said:
We'll know it's really bad when some of those super senior guys in MEM actually go back to school to get their degree so they can go to FedEx. The small pond those big fish so love just got toxic waste dumped in it....
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That has already happened, all the way to the top. 2 week wait list on previous records. We have derailed.

In the skid now.
 
Rocketman99 said:
Furthermore, I sincerely doubt any of them give half a waste product. If you don't work there anymore, they have no gripe...
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Ironic. Pinnacle Corp just b-slapped 2700 pilots and their families right across the face. A middle finger to the entire pilot group. And what is everyone concerned about? Everyone seems more concerned by the name release of a known crap disturberer on this and other forums.

Focus boys and girls, focus.
 
Cruise said:
Gripe, gripe, gripe.........doesn't matter where you work. If you're a pilot, you're griping about something. :D

As it pertains to PCL.....well, those gripes are more than valid, unlike many others. :eek:
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I was actually talking about the company not having a gripe about said former employee grumbling, not said former employee.

Yes, we all whine and complain and we're damn good at it too. Seems to run in the blood if you're a pileit.
 
Wow, I'm fairly sure not one section in there was anything good the pilot group...That's laughable.

Sorry to see this.
 
mastermags said:
Seriously?
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That's the whole problem with "First pay to the last day." The idea is that nobody should take any pay cuts and we should continue to operate at full pay until the company shuts its doors. With that model, the doors will shut and you will take a 100% pay cut instead of a X% pay cut.

So when people tell me, "Full pay to the last day." I say, OK. Tomorrow is the last day. Now what? Are you financially prepared to provide for you and your family with no pay? How long can you provide for you and your family with no pay? How many of your colleagues would you guess are prepared to provide for themselves and their family as long as you are? Longer? Shorter?

Bankruptcy sucks. Giving concessions sucks. Taking a 100% pay cut sucks a lot more.
 
bLizZuE said:
That's the whole problem with "First pay to the last day." The idea is that nobody should take any pay cuts and we should continue to operate at full pay until the company shuts its doors. With that model, the doors will shut and you will take a 100% pay cut instead of a X% pay cut.

So when people tell me, "Full pay to the last day." I say, OK. Tomorrow is the last day. Now what? Are you financially prepared to provide for you and your family with no pay? How long can you provide for you and your family with no pay? How many of your colleagues would you guess are prepared to provide for themselves and their family as long as you are? Longer? Shorter?

Bankruptcy sucks. Giving concessions sucks. Taking a 100% pay cut sucks a lot more.
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So, serious question -- let's take ExpressJet as an example.

Do you think the company would have liquidated by now had they not take the paycut they did? (I left before it happened but I think it was a couple percent across the board).
 
bLizZuE said:
Bankruptcy sucks. Giving concessions sucks. Taking a 100% pay cut sucks a lot more.
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BS! The company has a top heavy business model and that is the problem. The COMPANY can fix that by having a realistic business model. If the only way for them to continue is to have the labor group work under those conditions then shut this place down. They made a series of dumb decisions in management and are over staffed in a building they should never have been in...... and they don't want to change it. I fail to why the pilots should have to work under those terms so management can be status quo? It's like your wife having a mountain of credit card debt and saying you need to feed the kids less because of all the things she needs to buy.
 
WalterSobchak said:
BS! The company has a top heavy business model and that is the problem. The COMPANY can fix that by having a realistic business model. If the only way for them to continue is to have the labor group work under those conditions then shut this place down. They made a series of dumb decisions in management and are over staffed in a building they should never have been in...... and they don't want to change it. I fail to why the pilots should have to work under those terms so management can be status quo? It's like your wife having a mountain of credit card debt and saying you need to feed the kids less because of all the things she needs to buy.
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I get it. It's an overall issue. We shouldn't have to give concessions to make up for poor management choices. The reality is the company will get the concessions whether it's with the 1113 or a negotiated deal. It is a flawed system. You standing up for yourself, figuratively, by saying "HELL NO WE WON'T GO" doesn't really further any of your collective goals as a pilot group. It gives ammunition to the company in bankruptcy court and it could potentially yield deeper cuts.

I'm not saying we jump in bed with management and fulfill their every desire. I'm just saying that acting like we are immune to what the law, the bankruptcy court, says is "fair and equitable" has never, and will never work.
 
Nick said:
So, serious question -- let's take ExpressJet as an example.

Do you think the company would have liquidated by now had they not take the paycut they did? (I left before it happened but I think it was a couple percent across the board).
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I do not know much of anything about cuts that ExpressJet took. I know they furloughed 347 pilots but I was not aware it was combined with any concessions.

I was speaking to the bankruptcy situation. Much different than other negotiations.
 
bLizZuE said:
I do not know much of anything about cuts that ExpressJet took. I know they furloughed 347 pilots but I was not aware it was combined with any concessions.

I was speaking to the bankruptcy situation. Much different than other negotiations.
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I see and completely understand your point bLizZuE. But from the other perspective is that if you reward bad management by giving up pay and benefits, it becomes a regular option in their playbook.

On a full airplane, I earn $0.81 per passenger per hour. If that little amount of money is what is causing the company financial troubles, I don't feel that management deserves a second chance. Thankfully I don't work at Pinnacle, but quite frankly I'm not financially prepared if my company were to go out of business tomorrow. But I would still have a very difficult time giving concessions to keep the company afloat, and here are my reasons for that:

1) Say I give concessions and the company goes under anyway. I'm looking for another flying job, but other management teams have seen that my old company voted to give concessions. Under the guise of "remaning competitive" they massage the numbers, declare bankruptcy, and force concessions on their workers too. Now even if I find another flying job, the bar is lower and its just like the old place.

2) As an f/o, I simply am not, and will not be, making enough money at this company to justify "well, if I sacrifice short term to keep the company afloat, it will be worth it in the long run." What I am making now could be quickly recouped by leaving the industry and working almost anywhere else.

3) My company does not give a crap about me. If I was having financial troubles, they wouldn't "help me out." Despite the "thanks for all you do" emails, I am a number. Hell, I had to threaten to quit to be able to attend my own wedding. My company is so out of touch with employee morale they think that we want to friend them on facebook and make youtube videos about how much we love working here. They waste money on things like "employee appreciation days" where they give you ONE (don't take more than one!!!) soggy chicken sandwich that has been sitting in a cooler all day. Then they go on to talk about how we need to be more cost competitive. If I worked at a place that I thought was well run and that the company actually supported me and had my back, I'd be more than willing to help them out in a time of need. But I believe that is a slippery slope that would only result in them using it as a long term economic tactic instead of a move of desperation.

I certainly see your perspective, but I still don't agree with it. I probably would feel differently if I was a senior captain with nowhere else to go. But I'm not.
 
WalterSobchak said:
BS! The company has a top heavy business model and that is the problem. The COMPANY can fix that by having a realistic business model. If the only way for them to continue is to have the labor group work under those conditions then shut this place down. They made a series of dumb decisions in management and are over staffed in a building they should never have been in...... and they don't want to change it. I fail to why the pilots should have to work under those terms so management can be status quo? It's like your wife having a mountain of credit card debt and saying you need to feed the kids less because of all the things she needs to buy.
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Agree 100%. They presented a business model and fleet model a couple of months ago and asked for cuts. Then they went on hiatus while Delta did their TA thing. Then they come back with the SAME fleet model and want deeper cuts. WHAAAAT? So, you'll have the same number of airplanes and business you thought you would a few months ago, but now you NEED more cuts? That's not the pilots' fault, that's management. We're being asked (again) to fix problems not of our own making with hardly any other help from other groups except the FAs. Ground workers are looking at a 6% cut. Pilots....up to a 24% cut. What is management offering to cut? I haven't heard anything other than Spanjers accepting his huge raise.

Where we're bleeding through cash is in training costs. What set us on this road was the company's desire for an uber-vacancy a year ago rather than running smaller vacancies. It wrecked everything. We haven't recovered, and we likely won't for a long time, if ever. There's another vacancy coming out on Friday. The union has said NUMEROUS times that we're willing to work with the company to come up with creative ways to cut costs. The company insists the only way to cut costs is to slash wages and benefits. I don't think there's a pilot here that hasn't seen some way to improve efficiency without cutting costs. Yesterday, we had to wait on a plane in IAD that was coming in AFTER we were scheduled to leave. There was a Pinnacle plane sitting at another gate for over an hour we could have taken, and BOTH flights would have been on time. Sadly, it's the "No! This plane HAS to be XXXX" mentality that's killing our performance record. The company would like to think sending a memo to the pilots telling us the performance is in the tank and to try harder will fix the problem. They're unwilling to re-examine things like aircraft scheduling. It's too much for them to comprehend.
 
It's poker.

"Full pay to the last day" sends a message to the negotiators.

If it's "Oh hell, I'll take a 90% pay cut because it's better than a 100% pay cut", guess what their final offer is going to be.

It's an old game, no need to re-invent the wheel. It's been around since antiquity.

"Give us ZEE GOLT or we will kill all the womenz!"

"You may get a couple, old Conquistador, but we will ultimately whip your ass"

"How about a couple pieces of ZEE GOLT and a womenz or two?"

"Now we're making progress"
 
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