AirTran/SWA Seniority Integration Deal

...but then I do have my "Brostache App" at the ready when it comes time to tease a FNWA pilot that wants to talk about the SLI! :)
 
CzechAirman said:
Funny that most of you that think the Airtran pilots are getting screwed either work for the regionals or other lesser carriers.
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What sort of history do you have here to be smack talking the regulars? Did your Chuck Yeager skillz get you from 0 to airline hero sans regional?

"Lesser Carriers" - who do *you* work for? Why are you here if you just want to hide behind your thinly veiled insults (here and on APC - btw I am reporting your APC posts ;))
 
cencal83406 said:
What sort of history do you have here to be smack talking the regulars? Did your Chuck Yeager skillz get you from 0 to airline hero sans regional?

"Lesser Carriers" - who do *you* work for? Why are you here if you just want to hide behind your thinly veiled insults (here and on APC - btw I am reporting your APC posts ;))
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Guess it's a good thing that I work with APC's co-founder.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
This isn't about money. This is about seniority. We turned down SL9 because the seniority integration wasn't fair or equitable. Now we get SL10, and we still don't have seniority, plus the money is gone, but we have no choice but to vote for it because a gun is being held to our heads.




No, I didn't expect you to lay down and take it, and neither did anyone else. I expected you to honor the Process Agreement that your union signed that included a final and binding arbitration award. Instead, you threw a temper tantrum and insisted that you wouldn't accept an arbitrator's award. If what you're insisting is so fair, then you should have been willing to submit it to a neutral arbitrator to decide. But you wouldn't do that, because you knew that what you were demanding wasn't fair.



There's that arrogance again. AirTran was not a stepping stone carrier. This was a career airline. We worked very hard to make this carrier a success, and we're proud of what we accomplished. Your insistence on insulting our careers and our airline is disappointing.
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I hear Delta is taking Applications.
 
Boo737 said:
I hear Delta is taking Applications.
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Funny. Even back in 2001, there was a FedEx, a UPS, and two SWA pilots in my new hire class at Delta. At that time, all those carriers were considered "stepping stone" carriers. Yes, the mighty SWA was a second tier carrier up until around 2003-2004. You might try a little humility there Boo737. History has a way of repeating itself.
 
Cptnchia said:
Funny. Even back in 2001, there was a FedEx, a UPS, and two SWA pilots in my new hire class at Delta. At that time, all those carriers were considered "stepping stone" carriers. Yes, the mighty SWA was a second tier carrier up until around 2003-2004. You might try a little humility there Boo737. History has a way of repeating itself.
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Whatever, you're just jealous because you only ended up at Delta, a stepping stone carrier, when you really wanted to be at Southwest. Kind of like how my company is just a stepping stone to Skywest...now that they own us.

:)

[/sarcasm]
 
Cptnchia said:
Funny. Even back in 2001, there was a FedEx, a UPS, and two SWA pilots in my new hire class at Delta. At that time, all those carriers were considered "stepping stone" carriers. Yes, the mighty SWA was a second tier carrier up until around 2003-2004. You might try a little humility there Boo737. History has a way of repeating itself.
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Was that before the massive furlough after 9/11 or before? I cannot seem to remember since you guys treat your employees so well.
 
Trannies got a 10 year seat lock, money, benefits, and a A pay scale that was making even more than a equal to SWA FO in years. They got a fence around ATL for ten years. It was SL9. A AT Captain would have went from making $100,000 to over $250,000/year, gotten 9.3% of this total salary contributed by the company to his 401K, which would have been additional $21,000/year on top of his max contribution of $16500. They would have gotten profit sharing that has averaged over $8000/year for Captains. But it was not enough. They were getting compensated for their loss of seniority. No pilot at SWA feels sorry for them. I surely do not. They are getting what ALPA negotiated for them. If they want to take chance on arbitration, I will tell them this Herb, and Gary do not bluff. If you dont belive me just look at the Trans/Muse air pilots.
 
Boo737 said:
I hear Delta is taking Applications.
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Incorrect.

Who are you anyway? You really....really really really shouldn't expect much satisfaction from attempting to troll this website. The webmaster is a real •.
 
Maurus said:
I'm curious. Would you say this is true if the captain would have the same pay and QOL in the right seat as he would have had in left seat if there was no buy out?
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Yes, I would still say that. Being an FO and being a captain are two very different jobs. Everyone likes to say it's only about the pay, because they don't want to sound egotistical, but the reality is that if you told a captain that you would give him an extra $10k a year to downgrade to FO, or he could stay in his captain seat for his current pay, then almost every single one would take the captain seat and give up the $10k. There is value in flying with your favorite captain every day. :)

Boris Badenov said:
Has there EVER been a merger where someone didn't lose the left seat?
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Yes, just about every merger in airline history.

Has there ever been one where someone didn't wind up junior to someone who was hired later than the were?
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Yes, but that usually only happens in order to make sure that someone stays at their same relative seniority. It is incredibly unusual for someone to lose huge amounts of relative seniority, and to also be placed behind people on the list who were hired years after them.

boondr said:
Is that difference from the last offer or from your current seniority?
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The difference from the current offer. Our current deal has pilots losing up to 30% in relative seniority. I'm going from about 78% to 94%. I won't get back to my current relative seniority for about a decade. Some of our captains never get back to their relative seniority before hitting mandatory retirement, and many of our senior FOs will never be able to upgrade before hitting mandatory retirement.

Doug Taylor said:
Here's to hoping they get something worked our fair and equitable as seen by all sides.
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Nah, it's over, Doug. The deal is set, SWA and SWAPA won't move, and we are basically voting on whether to have a job or not. There won't be a fair deal. It's done.

Boo737 said:
A AT Captain would have went from making $100,000 to over $250,000/year
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There is no such thing as an AirTran captain making only $100k per year. Hell, I make more than that as a mid-seniority FO. Our captains make between $150k to $250k.

gotten 9.3% of this total salary contributed by the company to his 401K
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I already have a 10.5% B-Fund pension, along with a 1% 401k match, for a total company contribution of 11.5%, with 10.5% of it coming without me having to contribute a dime. I hate to break it to you, but your 401k plan is industry trailing. Every other major airline pilot group has a B-Fund. They go from 10% all the way up to 19.4%. Your 401k plan is a concession, not a gain for us.

They were getting compensated for their loss of seniority.
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You can't compensate someone for losing something permanent by giving them something temporary.

They are getting what ALPA negotiated for them.
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In the words of our Negotiating Committee at the first road show this past week, "there were no negotiations; we asked, and they denied. Over and over again." You can't negotiate with a gun held to your head.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
. Over and over again." You can't negotiate with a gun held to your head.
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I keep reading this phrase in this thread. Can you expand on it? Was there nothing Airtran brought to the table for good leverage? Or is this what things became post-first SLI offer (ie- now)?
 
Imagine the Navy and the Air Force combining into a single force.

Aaaaaaand both the Navy and the Air Force are comprised of 100% academy grads. The Colorado School for Wayward Boys on the Air Force side and Boat Skool on the Navy side.

The Navy had a slightly higher signing bonus so they feel they're superior so the Air Force should be ecstatic that the Navy is integrating them into their NATOPS program instead of the Army converting their force into Grunts.

So the option is dissolving the Air Force, or negotiating under the threat of dissolving the Air Force.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Imagine the Navy and the Air Force combining into a single force.

Aaaaaaand both the Navy and the Air Force are comprised of 100% academy grads. The Colorado School for Wayward Boys on the Air Force side and Boat Skool on the Navy side.

The Navy had a slightly higher signing bonus so they feel they're superior so the Air Force should be ecstatic that the Navy is integrating them into their NATOPS program instead of the Army converting their force into Grunts.

So the option is dissolving the Air Force, or negotiating under the threat of dissolving the Air Force.
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And the AF guys all going back to butter bars
 
Sounds like SWA screwed the pooch on this deal. From here on out, they're just another airline. Same manglement tactics and everything.
 
MikeD said:
I keep reading this phrase in this thread. Can you expand on it? Was there nothing Airtran brought to the table for good leverage? Or is this what things became post-first SLI offer (ie- now)?
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Oh, we have all sorts of legal protections. But it takes years to fight to enforce them if management chooses to ignore them, unfortunately.
 
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