AirTran/SWA Seniority Integration Deal

[Boo737]

Yes. Date of hire is irrelevant once you establish position on your respective seniority list. I'm assuming hypothetical 2000 hire at Southwest is an F/O because he can't hold captain at his respective company. If that is the case, he made the choice to go to a carrier that had slower upgrade. Disclosure- I don't work at either airline, but have been through a seniority integration.

And you made a choice to go to stepping stone carrier that got bought by a stonger carrier. That was your decision. So why should SWA pilots have to pay for your poor decision making?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Well, you guys turned that down did you not with SL9? You got to keep your seats and and get the money.

This isn't about money. This is about seniority. We turned down SL9 because the seniority integration wasn't fair or equitable. Now we get SL10, and we still don't have seniority, plus the money is gone, but we have no choice but to vote for it because a gun is being held to our heads.

if you think SWA pilots are going to lay down and welcome AT pilots with open arms after they turned down the deal of lifetime and then come after their seniority too, well I'm hear to tell you guys, you had better pack and lunch and bring a latern, because it's going to be a long year.

No, I didn't expect you to lay down and take it, and neither did anyone else. I expected you to honor the Process Agreement that your union signed that included a final and binding arbitration award. Instead, you threw a temper tantrum and insisted that you wouldn't accept an arbitrator's award. If what you're insisting is so fair, then you should have been willing to submit it to a neutral arbitrator to decide. But you wouldn't do that, because you knew that what you were demanding wasn't fair.

And you made a choice to go to stepping stone carrier that got bought by a stonger carrier. That was your decision. So why should SWA pilots have to pay for your poor decision making?

There's that arrogance again. AirTran was not a stepping stone carrier. This was a career airline. We worked very hard to make this carrier a success, and we're proud of what we accomplished. Your insistence on insulting our careers and our airline is disappointing.

 

[pullup]

This isn't about money. This is about seniority. We turned down SL9 because the seniority integration wasn't fair or equitable. Now we get SL10, and we still don't have seniority, plus the money is gone, but we have no choice but to vote for it because a gun is being held to our heads.

That's what i don't understand, you knew you would get crappier and crappier contracts so why not take the one positive, money? Will arbitration/moderation increase anything enough that the drawn out process would be worth it? Honest question.

When would you be considered a SW pilot come negotiation time? I mean when would you get the same contract as the current pilots?

There's that arrogance again. AirTran was not a stepping stone carrier. This was a career airline. We worked very hard to make this carrier a success, and we're proud of what we accomplished. Your insistence on insulting our careers and our airline is disappointing.

Why not, everyone else does it? I, personally, think it's retarded.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

That's what i don't understand, you knew you would get crappier and crappier contracts so why not take the one positive, money?

Because money doesn't solve a lack of seniority, and the Process Agreement was supposed to provide for arbitration if a fair list couldn't be negotiated.

Will arbitration/moderation increase anything enough that the drawn out process would be worth it? Honest question.

Absolutely. Arbitration probably would have resulted in a date of hire list or better which would have been an average increase of about 12%+ in relative seniority for our pilots. That's a huge difference.

When would you be considered a SW pilot come negotiation time? I mean when would you get the same contract as the current pilots?

Under this agreement, the 717 pay snaps up to SWA pay in January 2015. All of the rest of the SWA contract applies as soon as the transition takes place. Pilots will transition in groups beginning early next year.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

There are some good discussions going on in this thread. That being said, don't feed the trolls if these guys have to come on to Internet forums to feel like they have genitals of normal size..let them go play with the other crazies on some other site.

 

[Maurus]

Maybe, maybe not. What I can say for sure is that it's wrong for any captain to be kicked out of his seat so a pilot from the other airline can take it.

I'm curious. Would you say this is true if the captain would have the same pay and QOL in the right seat as he would have had in left seat if there was no buy out?

This is just for curiosity sake, I'm not implying that a WN FO is = to a ATN CA.

 

[Cptnchia]

I think it's easy for everyone to say southwest needs to put a better deal out there when your not in their shoes with something to loose. Southwest pilots have nothing to gain by this integration and everything to loose. If I was a southwest guy and my upgrade time went up one day because of this deal I would be furious and demand union heads.

I have walked in their shoes. Since the DAL/NWA merger, I've lost a bit of seniority. I've been displaced out of two categories and one base. Now it looks like I might get displaced again. I was 3-4 months away from an upgrade. Now, I'm several years away. There was nothing positive in this merger for me, but I didn't take it out on any fNWA pilot. It wasn't their fault for the merger. I didn't throw a fit and demand a staple or other draconian measures. I just wanted everyone to be treated fairly because we all were getting screwed. In the end, it was as fair as it can be.

SWA isn't some magical wonder of an airline. They were successful because they had a clear direction and business plan that all the employees followed. I think they have lost their focus, and in their zeal to protect the "culture," they are going to be responsible for killing it.

 

[pipepatrol]

There are some good discussions going on in this thread. That being said, don't feed the trolls if these guys have to come on to Internet forums to feel like they have genitals of normal size..let them go play with the other crazies on some other site.

Thanks for your holier-than-thou attitude....

 

[pullup]

Because money doesn't solve a lack of seniority, and the Process Agreement was supposed to provide for arbitration if a fair list couldn't be negotiated.



Absolutely. Arbitration probably would have resulted in a date of hire list or better which would have been an average increase of about 12%+ in relative seniority for our pilots. That's a huge difference.



Under this agreement, the 717 pay snaps up to SWA pay in January 2015. All of the rest of the SWA contract applies as soon as the transition takes place. Pilots will transition in groups beginning early next year.

Interesting, thanks for the info.

 

[mikecweb]

Thanks for your holier-than-thou attitude....

You are soooooo far off with that description of Emu. Thanks for playing though.

 

[moocowtex]

And you made a choice to go to stepping stone carrier that got bought by a stonger carrier. That was your decision. So why should SWA pilots have to pay for your poor decision making?

Apparently all the continental pilots made the poor choice to go to a stepping stone carrier. Someone else nailed it when they said you were confusing longevity and seniority.

 

[moocowtex]

Southwest is a good carrier. Will it always be? Probably not. Someone smarter than me said to make sure your company can be run by idiots, because one day, it will be. I would like to see you tell a guy hired at TWA in the 70's "Dude, you made a choice to go to a stepping stone carrier". So I think everyones issue with all the chest thumping "Southwest kicks ass...screw the rest of you guys" is that history suggests (practically guarantees) that they will take their turn through the wringer. I don't begrudge each pilot group trying to get the best respective deal for their membership. That's what they're supposed to do. But it looks silly when one group makes disparaging remarks about the other, when they are doing the exact same job with the exact same equipment (actually, Airtran does more....they actually fly to foreign countries).

 

[Cruise]

So you thinks it's fair for a AT pilot hired in 2005 who upgraded at AT to be above a pilot at SWA who was hired in 2000 and is still in the right seat? You're saying the SWA guys 5 years being on the property before you count for nothing? As for the Midwest deal, then why did'nt you buy Midwest? And you would have no problem with a guy who was hired at Midwest who was 5 years junior to you going above you in pay, seniority, and seat because of the goodness in your heart? I doubt that very seriously.

Yes!

 

[Cruise]

Yes. Date of hire is irrelevant once you establish position on your respective seniority list. I'm assuming hypothetical 2000 hire at Southwest is an F/O because he can't hold captain at his respective company. If that is the case, he made the choice to go to a carrier that had slower upgrade. Disclosure- I don't work at either airline, but have been through a seniority integration.

And you made a choice to go to stepping stone carrier that got bought by a stonger carrier. That was your decision. So why should SWA pilots have to pay for your poor decision making?

Attention to detail = FAIL. Try taking the emotion out of the argument.....it appears to be clouding your judgement.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Attention to detail = FAIL. Try taking the emotion out of the argument.....it appears to be clouding your judgement.

Yes!

If you take the emotion out of the argument, it really just boils down to everyone wants a bigger slice of the pie, and there's not really all that much to talk about. Has there EVER been a merger where someone didn't lose the left seat? Has there ever been one where someone didn't wind up junior to someone who was hired later than the were? Relying upon all of these subjective evaluations as to what "seems right" is ridiculous on its face...each side is going to get what they are able to negotiate. Period. With that said, it certainly seems to me that SWAPA is bargaining from the position of strength...

 

[boondr]

Absolutely. Arbitration probably would have resulted in a date of hire list or better which would have been an average increase of about 12%+ in relative seniority for our pilots. That's a huge difference.

Is that difference from the last offer or from your current seniority?

 

[CzechAirman]

Funny that most of you that think the Airtran pilots are getting screwed either work for the regionals or other lesser carriers.

 

[WacoFan]

It's going out to a vote not an arbitrator. Why are most of you on this forum so against SWA and SWAPA on this issue? They are just doing what anyone would do, looking out for their best interest.

SWAPA is doing what they need to do to protect their pilot group - the ones who've paid dues and have entrusted SWAPA to look after their best interests. ALPA, sadly for the ATN pilots, was not up to SWAPA's game in this instance apparently. I admire SWAPA for doing what a union SHOULD do which is to protect the interests of the people paying dues (as compared to ALPA who completely boned the TWA pilots in favor of trying to woo APA).

No, that's not what "anyone" would do. When AirTran was trying to buy Midwest, our pilots were in favor of a relative seniority integration for the Midwest pilots. They were a much smaller carrier in real financial trouble, so we easily could have tried to screw them over by claiming that they wouldn't have jobs if not for a merger, but I didn't hear a single AirTran pilot advocating such a thing. We just wanted what was reasonable and fair. And even though we're getting screwed over on this deal, and a fair integration for another pilot group in a future merger would just serve to push me further down the list and harm my career expectations even more, I'll never advocate to do this to another pilot group after I'm a Southwest pilot. It's just not right.

It is really, really easy to say what you "would" have done had the opportunity presented itself. For example, I "would" have led the NBA in scoring...had I been able to grow to 6'8" tall. I "would" have won 10 Super Bowls...had I been any good at throwing a football. I "would" have been a great philanthropist...had I been born into a family with billions of dollars. It is really fun to state what I "would" have done but it has no meaning nor credibility because the situation never came to pass. I'll pass on acknowledging how humane ALPA would have been, given ALPA's behavior with TWA and their behavior after the suit (destruction of evidence, etc).

 

[derg]

Here's to hoping they get something worked our fair and equitable as seen by all sides.

I don't think the industry needs another US Airways and no one is immune from that happening with a seniority list fight.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Here's to hoping they get something worked our fair and equitable as seen by all sides.

I don't think the industry needs another US Airways and no one is immune from that happening with a seniority list fight.

But then there would be less drama to talk about!

Just kidding of course. Last week I flew with a guy who admitted that flying was his least favorite part of this job. But he was completely up to date on all the airline labor drama and loved talking about nothing else. Kinda strange.

I really think that in this, and every merger, the two groups need to do what is best for everybody, then use the bigger, stronger, group to use the opportunity of a merger to make it a better place to work.

This "I'm only looking out for number 1 no matter who I have to step on" crap is exactly why this country is the way it is nowadays.