AirTran/SWA Seniority Integration Deal

[Polar742]

Oh, we have all sorts of legal protections. But it takes years to fight to enforce them if management chooses to ignore them, unfortunately.

The breakdown being: 1) S-Sammich #2 is voted down 2) AirTran parted out and sold off - pilots on the street 3) lawsuits begin 4) 10-15 years prior to resolution?

Is that the scenario presented to you?

 

[derg]

When's the volleyball game?

In cut-off shorts even.

 

[Boo737]

Incorrect.

Who are you anyway? You really....really really really shouldn't expect much satisfaction from attempting to troll this website. The webmaster is a real •.

ooh, I'm shaking in my boots.

 

[Cruise]

ooh, I'm shaking in my boots.

LOL....... Nice come back on that one. Moderator education coming your way in 3...2....

 

[Boo737]

Yes, I would still say that. Being an FO and being a captain are two very different jobs. Everyone likes to say it's only about the pay, because they don't want to sound egotistical, but the reality is that if you told a captain that you would give him an extra $10k a year to downgrade to FO, or he could stay in his captain seat for his current pay, then almost every single one would take the captain seat and give up the $10k. There is value in flying with your favorite captain every day.



Yes, just about every merger in airline history.



Yes, but that usually only happens in order to make sure that someone stays at their same relative seniority. It is incredibly unusual for someone to lose huge amounts of relative seniority, and to also be placed behind people on the list who were hired years after them.



The difference from the current offer. Our current deal has pilots losing up to 30% in relative seniority. I'm going from about 78% to 94%. I won't get back to my current relative seniority for about a decade. Some of our captains never get back to their relative seniority before hitting mandatory retirement, and many of our senior FOs will never be able to upgrade before hitting mandatory retirement.



Nah, it's over, Doug. The deal is set, SWA and SWAPA won't move, and we are basically voting on whether to have a job or not. There won't be a fair deal. It's done.



There is no such thing as an AirTran captain making only $100k per year. Hell, I make more than that as a mid-seniority FO. Our captains make between $150k to $250k.



I already have a 10.5% B-Fund pension, along with a 1% 401k match, for a total company contribution of 11.5%, with 10.5% of it coming without me having to contribute a dime. I hate to break it to you, but your 401k plan is industry trailing. Every other major airline pilot group has a B-Fund. They go from 10% all the way up to 19.4%. Your 401k plan is a concession, not a gain for us.



You can't compensate someone for losing something permanent by giving them something temporary.



In the words of our Negotiating Committee at the first road show this past week, "there were no negotiations; we asked, and they denied. Over and over again." You can't negotiate with a gun held to your head.

Well you should not be upset that the AT captains are not going to be paid at SWA rates. As for your pension, good luck with that, it will turn out like Delta. Ask all the poor SOB's who retired and Delta and then Delta came after their pensions. As for what AT Captains make, well the pay rates are located on another forum and no AT Captains make $250,000/year. Sorry those numbers do not add up. No one's holding a gun to your head there chief. Vote No! I hope all of you do, and get in line to interview at SWA and that will mean just more seniority for our guys. ALPA put you in this position, no one else did.

 

[WacoFan]

What happens now that SWA and SWAPA have got this done? Do other pilot groups (DAL, FedEx) see the impotence of ALPA and go in-house? Does ALPA become a union for regionals primarily? I can't see how ALPA, after another loss, and with the specter of a huge TWA settlement hanging over their heads survives.

 

[Nick]

Sounds like SWA screwed the pooch on this deal. From here on out, they're just another airline. Same manglement tactics and everything.

That is the part that I do not understand.

After reading ATN's posts, depending on how SWA handles this the rest of the way through, they will seem to have completely lost the one thing that separates them from other companies, and that is labor relations.

They cannot possibly expect to bring the entire AirTran pilot group on board in a fashion that is highly unfair to them, and expect them to have good morale and be the type of employees that go out of their way to help the company save money and operate smoothly.

So without 100% of the employees on board, what are they?

An airline that flies all over the lower 48 but can't connect the business man from Savannah to Singapore, or Luanda to Seattle.

This will be very interesting to watch. SWA knows how to run an airline up until now -- very little outsourcing, customers love them, and they are profitable. But can they pull off a merge without turning it into the next US Airways?

 

[Gonzo]

What happens now that SWA and SWAPA have got this done? Do other pilot groups (DAL, FedEx) see the impotence of ALPA and go in-house? Does ALPA become a union for regionals primarily? I can't see how ALPA, after another loss, and with the specter of a huge TWA settlement hanging over their heads survives.

FedEx tried a in-house union it didn't work so they went back to ALPA, as far as DALPA I don't think it is going to happen.

 

[WacoFan]

That is the part that I do not understand.

After reading ATN's posts, depending on how SWA handles this the rest of the way through, they will seem to have completely lost the one thing that separates them from other companies, and that is labor relations.

They cannot possibly expect to bring the entire AirTran pilot group on board in a fashion that is highly unfair to them, and expect them to have good morale and be the type of employees that go out of their way to help the company save money and operate smoothly.

So without 100% of the employees on board, what are they?

An airline that flies all over the lower 48 but can't connect the business man from Savannah to Singapore, or Luanda to Seattle.

This will be very interesting to watch. SWA knows how to run an airline up until now -- very little outsourcing, customers love them, and they are profitable. But can they pull off a merge without turning it into the next US Airways?

They didn't screw anything up. The airline took care of a VAST majority of their pilots (the SWA group) and SWAPA did an admirable job of getting a good deal for their clients (SWA pilots). "Labor" didn't lose at all - one union (SWAPA) just did phenominally better than a competing union (ALPA) and hammered them. SWA ended up with a deal that keeps a vast majority of their pilots happy, and any bad attitudes can, and will, be weeded out in various ways - and I imagine that this message will be imparted to the new group. It also serves as a pretty good lesson to the pilots (on both sides) of "Don't screw with management, they aren't messing around".

 

[Boo737]

They didn't screw anything up. The airline took care of a VAST majority of their pilots (the SWA group) and SWAPA did an admirable job of getting a good deal for their clients (SWA pilots). "Labor" didn't lose at all - one union (SWAPA) just did phenominally better than a competing union (ALPA) and hammered them. SWA ended up with a deal that keeps a vast majority of their pilots happy, and any bad attitudes can, and will, be weeded out in various ways - and I imagine that this message will be imparted to the new group. It also serves as a pretty good lesson to the pilots (on both sides) of "Don't screw with management, they aren't messing around".

Waco, its not about AT, most of the guys on here are ALPA boys, or guys who got turned down by SWA, so they have a ax to grind.

 

[Polar742]

Waco, its not about AT, most of the guys on here are ALPA boys, or guys who got turned down by SWA, so they have a ax to grind.

Bro, a seniority windfall is a seniority windfall. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I don't know if WN is your first 121 job or you're just oblivious and don't really listen to those who've been through a merger before. But, that's cool. Ask a fNWA dude about Republic. Ask a TWA dude about Ozark. Ask a Piedmont guy about Allegheny. Ask a Delta guy about Western. Ask a AA guy about Reno. Guys are still upset over stuff that happened 20 years prior and you're 3 contracts downline.

I agree 100% with Waco. WN management sent out a VERY strong message.

 

[Nick]

They didn't screw anything up. The airline took care of a VAST majority of their pilots (the SWA group) and SWAPA did an admirable job of getting a good deal for their clients (SWA pilots). "Labor" didn't lose at all - one union (SWAPA) just did phenominally better than a competing union (ALPA) and hammered them. SWA ended up with a deal that keeps a vast majority of their pilots happy, and any bad attitudes can, and will, be weeded out in various ways - and I imagine that this message will be imparted to the new group. It also serves as a pretty good lesson to the pilots (on both sides) of "Don't screw with management, they aren't messing around".

One company was buying the other, though.

If they end up pissing off all of the AirTran pilots, they'd have to be weeding out 23% of the new pilot seniority list.

All I'm saying is, I agree with what RogerRoger said in that if the stuff ATN writes happens, this goes against the mentality that SWA has had in the past several decades. Yes, the groups must be integrated somehow -- but if one side thinks that it was unreasonable and unfair then there are going to be problems, that's all.

 

[kellwolf]

Maybe it's just 'cause I'm at 9E, but if someone said "We'll give you $10k but you have to go back to being an FO," I'd trip over people to sign on the line. I don't need to be a CA for my life to be complete. In fact, it's a good bet I won't even upgrade once I finally make the jump from the regionals. I agree they're different jobs, and it's nice setting the tone and the pace as a CA. It's also pretty nice not to have the weight of the freakin' world on your shoulders whenever something goes wrong.

 

[Polar742]

Maybe it's just 'cause I'm at 9E, but if someone said "We'll give you $10k but you have to go back to being an FO," I'd trip over people to sign on the line. I don't need to be a CA for my life to be complete. In fact, it's a good bet I won't even upgrade once I finally make the jump from the regionals. I agree they're different jobs, and it's nice setting the tone and the pace as a CA. It's also pretty nice not to have the weight of the freakin' world on your shoulders whenever something goes wrong.

Would you take that 10k today to sit as a FO with the exact same junior schedule you have for the next 10 years?

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Funny that most of you that think the Airtran pilots are getting screwed either work for the regionals or other lesser carriers.

FYI just for full disclosure, this guy is like AirAlgerie. He claims on his about me to have 14,000 hours and an ATP as well as fly the 75/76, but according to FI-Lite, he's a Metro FO.

 

[Nick]

FYI just for full disclosure, this guy is like AirAlgerie. He claims on his about me to have 14,000 hours and an ATP as well as fly the 75/76, but according to FI-Lite, he's a Metro FO.

I like how he told you on here not long ago that he is is good friends with/knows a co-founder of Apc and yet a thread there just got locked by a moderator specifically because of him. Ha. Well connected guy!

 

[Boris Badenov]

This is why the Internet is AWESOME.

 

[CzechAirman]

FYI just for full disclosure, this guy is like AirAlgerie. He claims on his about me to have 14,000 hours and an ATP as well as fly the 75/76, but according to FI-Lite, he's a Metro FO.

Incorrect.

 

[CzechAirman]

I like how he told you on here not long ago that he is is good friends with/knows a co-founder of Apc and yet a thread there just got locked by a moderator specifically because of him. Ha. Well connected guy!

You guys are worse than a group of little old ladies gossiping at the hair salon.

 

[Nick]

You guys are worse than a group of little old ladies gossiping at the hair salon.

Well, nothing I wrote was false.

That part cannot be argued.

It is all in writing on the internet, right now.