Unions???

[O&M]

So where did this notion come from the the employer has an obligation to "treat the employee well?" Who's paying who? Your employer pays you to do a job, and regardless of the amount, if you accept the paycheck you have an obligation to do that job to the best of your ability; i.e. to treat your employer well.

For me, the bottom line is, he who takes the risk calls the shots. Employees assume no risk, unless they also happen to be investors. Therefore their job is to do what they're tpld. An employee is paid for every minute he is on the job, regardless of profit or loss. Owners only get paid if a profit is made.

 

[derg]

Quick, Batman, to the sweat shop!

 

[jynxyjoe]

So where did this notion come from the the employer has an obligation to "treat the employee well?" Who's paying who? Your employer pays you to do a job, and regardless of the amount, if you accept the paycheck you have an obligation to do that job to the best of your ability; i.e. to treat your employer well.

For me, the bottom line is, he who takes the risk calls the shots. Employees assume no risk, unless they also happen to be investors. Therefore their job is to do what they're tpld. An employee is paid for every minute he is on the job, regardless of profit or loss. Owners only get paid if a profit is made.

God I love this. It's like Christmas with a mustache and boobies.

 

[derg]

So where did this notion come from the the employer has an obligation to "treat the employee well?" Who's paying who? Your employer pays you to do a job, and regardless of the amount, if you accept the paycheck you have an obligation to do that job to the best of your ability; i.e. to treat your employer well.

For me, the bottom line is, he who takes the risk calls the shots. Employees assume no risk, unless they also happen to be investors. Therefore their job is to do what they're tpld. An employee is paid for every minute he is on the job, regardless of profit or loss. Owners only get paid if a profit is made.

Employees treated like unvalued junk produce unvaluable junk. In N Out Burger starts over $12/hr here in PHX and their burgers rock — not because they pay their employees well, but they understand if you want a consistently high-quality product, you have to take care of your people. Dairy Queen starts at minimum wage and when was the last time there was a six page face-palmer about the quality of their burgers? Lemme check.... Nope, haven't found one yet!

Go to ATL. Compare Terminal C to Terminal E and we'll talk about the differences in atmosphere and product.


I figured that would have been a lesson corporate America learned in the last decade, but if this is the prevailing view now, I'll continue on Rosetta Stone: Mandarin.

 

[DE727UPS]

"Your employer pays you to do a job, and regardless of the amount, if you accept the paycheck you have an obligation to do that job to the best of your ability;"

Naaaaa. Disconnect and major fail....(hello Waco)

I accept the paycheck and do the job according to the contract. The "best of my ability" is not a player. The best of my ability might be quite an awesome thing to see but you won't see me go outside the contract. I lack motivation. Now, if my company wanted to treat me in a manner that the union, or the contract, is not necessary, then I'm game to give over and above and you can see my best-est ability.

Your answer will be that you can do without me and my attitude. And that is why the union exists in the first place. If enough of us stick together and tell them (you) to shove it, then they (you) will have to deal with us. Divided we fall but United we stand.

The employer wants to make a profit and have their enterprise exist. They need to make it worthwhile for the widgets to play along and it seems that unions help with that. Not sure why...but that's how it is...

 

[Falcon262]

Erie-Lackawanna Railroad, where is this located?

I belive it is in New York. I remember riding on that railroad when I was growing up.

 

[pullup]

I belive it is in New York. I remember riding on that railroad when I was growing up.

That's what I was thinking since I live near Lackawanna. where were you from?

 

[WacoFan]

"Your employer pays you to do a job, and regardless of the amount, if you accept the paycheck you have an obligation to do that job to the best of your ability;"

Naaaaa. Disconnect and major fail....(hello Waco)

I accept the paycheck and do the job according to the contract. The "best of my ability" is not a player. The best of my ability might be quite an awesome thing to see but you won't see me go outside the contract. I lack motivation. Now, if my company wanted to treat me in a manner that the union, or the contract, is not necessary, then I'm game to give over and above and you can see my best-est ability.

Your answer will be that you can do without me and my attitude. And that is why the union exists in the first place. If enough of us stick together and tell them (you) to shove it, then they (you) will have to deal with us. Divided we fall but United we stand.

The employer wants to make a profit and have their enterprise exist. They need to make it worthwhile for the widgets to play along and it seems that unions help with that. Not sure why...but that's how it is...

First, I'd like to thank the three people that actually read my posts on this thread for content. Salud.

Second - I get what you are saying here. But you do realize your description of your efforts commoditizes your labor, right? I mean, with your description YOU make it sound as if you are motor oil.

The idea that you make me think of though is kind in interesting and, at least in my mind, brings up why unions are important for 121 jobs in specific. I think that in an ideal world 121 pilots would be purely commodities - because it seems like what is valuable (and safe) is pure standardization and interchangeable parts. As a question I would ask you, and other 121 pilots; what could you do "over and above" that would enhance safety or performance in some substantial way that you are avoiding doing right now that isn't in the contract? I can imagine that there are some fuel efficiency things perhaps (maybe), and certainly taxiing like an AA pilot to milk the clock - but in terms of a substantial difference in behavior that would improve safety or cost savings - what could you be doing if UPS treated you well that you aren't doing now?

My guess is that in terms of safety there is nothing you could do that you are willingly not doing. That's a pure guess but a logical conclusion.

Because 121 stresses "standard" you are by definition somewhat of a cog - and that is what makes the union so important. There is really no way for you to excel too much in comparison to your peers, so therefore you need a strong collective bargaining and negotiating method. Just some random thoughts.

 

[jynxyjoe]

First, I'd like to thank the three people that actually read my posts on this thread for content. Salud.

Second - I get what you are saying here. But you do realize your description of your efforts commoditizes your labor, right? I mean, with your description YOU make it sound as if you are motor oil.

The idea that you make me think of though is kind in interesting and, at least in my mind, brings up why unions are important for 121 jobs in specific. I think that in an ideal world 121 pilots would be purely commodities - because it seems like what is valuable (and safe) is pure standardization and interchangeable parts. As a question I would ask you, and other 121 pilots; what could you do "over and above" that would enhance safety or performance in some substantial way that you are avoiding doing right now that isn't in the contract? I can imagine that there are some fuel efficiency things perhaps (maybe), and certainly taxiing like an AA pilot to milk the clock - but in terms of a substantial difference in behavior that would improve safety or cost savings - what could you be doing if UPS treated you well that you aren't doing now?

My guess is that in terms of safety there is nothing you could do that you are willingly not doing. That's a pure guess but a logical conclusion.

Because 121 stresses "standard" you are by definition somewhat of a cog - and that is what makes the union so important. There is really no way for you to excel too much in comparison to your peers, so therefore you need a strong collective bargaining and negotiating method. Just some random thoughts.

Hey man, I was in back of an AA guy at JFK and it was great! Instead of accelerate, creep, stop, accelerate, creep, stop x100, we just taxied slow on one engine, never used the brakes or anything, and rolled slowly for takeoff. That's gotta be better for brake wear and fuel usage.

I don't really have much to say about the meat of your post because I agree with much of it. However I'll say working and communicating with dispatch/screw scheduling and the like is much easier (on them) when we as pilots get on things early or just answer phones right away. I think you'll find a 121 group as a whole can be MUCH more effective to management if we go out of our way to communicate with all other parties promptly rather than, "well if they can't treat us like human beings I suppose I won't do them the courtesy of picking up for 10-15 minutes". In the regional world (even a well run regional like Mesaba, yes I'm a cheerleader), a lot of things are still last minute and prompt responses save on time performance. So in that long and rambling example I will say we really don't function much like cogs unless everything is going perfectly (no MEL's/CDL's and no screwups and certainly no weather day). Every other time we have a lot of value to those management folks who may or may not hate us with every fiber of our being.

More: I'll go on to say, even FA's really wouldn't be much of a Cog because they may get the doors closed on time, however then they'll treat the cabin (paying customers) like crap because their parent company and their union are trying to railroad their seniority and QOL. Our customer service numbers have tanked thanks (I feel) to that.

 

[WacoFan]

Hey man, I was in back of an AA guy at JFK and it was great! Instead of accelerate, creep, stop, accelerate, creep, stop x100, we just taxied slow on one engine, never used the brakes or anything, and rolled slowly for takeoff. That's gotta be better for brake wear and fuel usage.

I don't really have much to say about the meat of your post because I agree with much of it. However I'll say working and communicating with dispatch/screw scheduling and the like is much easier (on them) when we as pilots get on things early or just answer phones right away. I think you'll find a 121 group as a whole can be MUCH more effective to management if we go out of our way to communicate with all other parties promptly rather than, "well if they can't treat us like human beings I suppose I won't do them the courtesy of picking up for 10-15 minutes". In the regional world (even a well run regional like Mesaba, yes I'm a cheerleader), a lot of things are still last minute and prompt responses save on time performance.

Thanks for the reply. Certainly am not familiar enough with 121 to understand how much savings could be realized over and above the "contract requirements". The idea though is that more than almost anything else 121 pilots need a union. I would include truckers, bus drivers and train people as well.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Thanks for the reply. Certainly am not familiar enough with 121 to understand how much savings could be realized over and above the "contract requirements". The idea though is that more than almost anything else 121 pilots need a union. I would include truckers, bus drivers and train people as well.

I know, I also added a lot of examples too after you replied. I'm an edit shmore. I think if you'd shadowed our crew on the last trip you'd see why. Although I will say this, if management could somehow make the: weather dissapear, taxi times to erase, overblock everything, no MX problems ever, not screw up their own operation from poor planning and expect us to fix it, we'd probably be great cogs.

A few months back, just before Delta and all of it's regional "partners" got stomped with the US's largest civil fine against the company for their treatment of disabled passengers, my captain and I stayed with a handicapped mentally retarded young man from our flight until someone came and picked him up because our wheelchair service in Austin didn't have anyone that night. We missed our shuttle and had to use our cell phones (because the gentleman left his phone on the whole flight) and his boarding pass to figure out what care group was suppose to have picked him up. We didn't get paid for any of that stuff, nor did we ever receive a thank you. I think we, as pilots, do a lot more than motor oil does for a car obviously, but it's hard to see unless you are with us.

 

[WacoFan]

I know, I also added a lot of examples too after you replied. I'm an edit shmore. I think if you'd shadowed our crew on the last trip you'd see why. Although I will say this, if management could somehow make the: weather dissapear, taxi times to erase, overblock everything, no MX problems ever, not screw up their own operation from poor planning and expect us to fix it, we'd probably be great cogs.

A few months back, just before Delta and all of it's regional "partners" got stomped with the US's largest civil fine against the company for their treatment of disabled passengers, my captain and I stayed with a handicapped mentally retarded young man from our flight until someone came and picked him up because our wheelchair service in Austin didn't have anyone that night. We missed our shuttle and had to use our cell phones (because the gentleman left his phone on the whole flight) and his boarding pass to figure out what care group was suppose to have picked him up. We didn't get paid for any of that stuff, nor did we ever receive a thank you. I think we, as pilots, do a lot more than motor oil does for a car obviously, but it's hard to see unless you are with us.

Excellent replies.

 

[pullup]

A few months back, just before Delta and all of it's regional "partners" got stomped with the US's largest civil fine against the company for their treatment of disabled passengers, my captain and I stayed with a handicapped mentally retarded young man from our flight until someone came and picked him up because our wheelchair service in Austin didn't have anyone that night. We missed our shuttle and had to use our cell phones (because the gentleman left his phone on the whole flight) and his boarding pass to figure out what care group was suppose to have picked him up. We didn't get paid for any of that stuff, nor did we ever receive a thank you. I think we, as pilots, do a lot more than motor oil does for a car obviously, but it's hard to see unless you are with us.

If anyone, pilot or not, wouldn't do the same as you guys did (awesome, by the way) because of some contract I would punch them right in the mouth. Good on you two.

 

[Ian_J]

If anyone, pilot or not, wouldn't do the same as you guys did (awesome, by the way) because of some contract I would punch them right in the mouth. Good on you two.

Be pretty easy to dig up quotes of specific JC people who definitely would not do that... better get that fist warmed up!

 

[scooter2525]

Jynx, how would your employer handle that situation if you delayed a flight because of helping the pax out?

 

[pullup]

Be pretty easy to dig up quotes of specific JC people who definitely would not do that... better get that fist warmed up!

I would gladly do it, we as a society need to protect out most fragile: sick/disabled, children, and the elderly. If it's between me helping a retarded/disabled person and me losing my job, well it's only a job.

 

[pullup]

Jynx, how would your employer handle that situation if you delayed a flight because of helping the pax out?

Great question, I think I know the answer already, unfortunately.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Jynx, how would your employer handle that situation if you delayed a flight because of helping the pax out?

Great question, I think I know the answer already, unfortunately.

I can't speak for every company, but Mesaba may give us a little flak at first not completely believing what happened (it's hard to believe this stuff goes on honestly) but once the DO or CP or anyone in upper management would hear about it I'm fairly confident we'd both get calls of thanks. The situation you are describing, scooter, may be hard to create. It was the last flight of the night, other wise the gate agent would have had to handle it because they were at the gate. The gate agent was staying behind to remove the jetbridge from the plane so MX could get ahold of it (AUS is a MX base) so we carried wheeled him up. We waited and called ops and got a few numbers to call, after realizing we'd just switched companies and the new wheelchair company had dropped the ball we figured, "ah hell, let the FA's go we'll get this guy out front for his care taker to pick him up." Then it turned into, "Oh you have to call them and your phone has no power? Where do you stay? Oh you don't know the name of the place exactly?" Captain whipped out his stone age phone, as did I, we both dialed 411 and started working the name. CA found the people on try two because the wheelchair guy said, "OH THAT'S IT," because he was reading them back out loud. Turned out the guy was in the cell phone lot waiting and wasnt' worried yet because we were so early to the gate. If it was a reduced overnight or something I can see us delaying it and our managers killing someone at the new wheelchair company, but I don't see any of those guys coming after us. Maybe someone at Pinnacle or Colgan, I can't speak on their behalf, but Joe Restifo, Dale Vandenburg, anyone like John Spanky Spanjers may be managers but they are people too. Joe would probably call the CA and me both for a followup and thank us.

Also, just to be clear, the CA was dead set on getting him to where he was going, I thought it would make more sense to find someone at the airport who does wheelchair service to take care of him and make them bill the company double. But the Captain led and I followed as best I could.

 

[Cruise]

So where did this notion come from the the employer has an obligation to "treat the employee well?" Who's paying who? Your employer pays you to do a job, and regardless of the amount, if you accept the paycheck you have an obligation to do that job to the best of your ability; i.e. to treat your employer well.

For me, the bottom line is, he who takes the risk calls the shots. Employees assume no risk, unless they also happen to be investors. Therefore their job is to do what they're tpld. An employee is paid for every minute he is on the job, regardless of profit or loss. Owners only get paid if a profit is made.

Good to know. So, when should I expect my back pay for the countless hours I spend at work without pay?

You are such an amazing mouthpiece for the ills of the American workplace. Thanks! Your words inspire trade unionism!

 

[scooter2525]

Thats good, either way you are willing to do that. I applaud you for that. Sad that some companies might make you do the carpet dance for that situation. I gathered from your first post that it was on your time, and I should clarify if, for whatever reason, it DID cause you to delay on block out if it would be a problem. Sounds like initially yes, but your DO or CP wouldn't come down on ya.