Unions???

Pilotforhire587

Pilotforhire587

Lycra Man
Ok, So I can't say I have ever been ANTI union, I just didn't see why a company wouldn't treat their employees well in the first place, and I never worked for a company that didn't until I started working for the airlines. I have a friend of mine who is completely anti union and nothing I have been able to say has convinced him otherwise. I still am not pro union, I just think we need them in our profession. So let the comments begin, I have told him about what ALPA and the other unions we have in the industry do for us but that isn't really working. I don't want you to leave those parts out but I would like help in putting together a fool proof arguement to why we need unions as pilots in the 121 world, what they do for us and why they are justified. Thanks for the help guys, if it comes to it, I will have him read this thread. Thanks in advance for the help. GOOD LUCK WE ARE ALL COUNTING ON YOU:pirate::insane:
 
I'm looking forward to a good, lively union discussion - we haven't had one in awhile ...

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The Marion Blakey FAA certainly went above and beyond in its efforts to convert me to being rabidly pro-union, and I wouldn't want to unleash that experience on my worst enemy.

Wait. Come to think of it, my worst enemy was an FAA manager.

Never mind.
 
Ask your buddy if he wants his wife and kids on an airplane with a pair of sick pilots who have been up for 20 hours.

If he says yes, then tell him his anti union stance is perfectly acceptable.

If he says no, then tell him that's why we need unions.
 
Murdoughnut said:
I'm looking forward to a good, lively union discussion - we haven't had one in awhile ...

beating_a_dead_horse.jpg
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I apologize... I haven't partaken in one in a long time... Figured I would get the next strong hearted discussion started. Figured it would go well with the guys involved with the UAL CAL merger on here.
 
jtrain609 said:
Ask your buddy if he wants his wife and kids on an airplane with a pair of sick pilots who have been up for 20 hours.

If he says yes, then tell him his anti union stance is perfectly acceptable.

If he says no, then tell him that's why we need unions.
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I'm trying to rack my brain thinking of a non-union carrier where this would happen. And I can't think of a single one.

Do you have an example of a non-union carrier where this is currently happening?
 
wheelsup said:
I'm trying to rack my brain thinking of a non-union carrier where this would happen. And I can't think of a single one.

Do you have an example of a non-union carrier where this is currently happening?
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How about at a place where sick and fatigue calls count towards discipline? Hell, that's how it was at my company until recently. Sick call with a doctors note saying that you had been hit by a car? Sorry, counts to write ups.

It results in pilot pushing, and without the knowledge that you can make a sick or a fatigue call based on whether you're safe to come to work, it's an accident waiting to happen.
 
All you want to know about unions in airlines: Read "Flying the Line" and "Flying the Line II".


Then come talk.
 
jtrain609 said:
How about at a place where sick and fatigue calls count towards discipline? Hell, that's how it was at my company until recently. Sick call with a doctors note saying that you had been hit by a car? Sorry, counts to write ups.

It results in pilot pushing, and without the knowledge that you can make a sick or a fatigue call based on whether you're safe to come to work, it's an accident waiting to happen.
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But your company is union...so you're really not helping your cause here.

ETA: The sole reason for the change in policy was the Colgan crash, and airlines trying to save face. Don't kid yourself, the union on property had nothing to do with it, and if it did, it would have happened a long time ago. Hardly a reason for a union.

Plus, you wouldn't have that policy in place unless people were abusing sick leave. It happens, a LOT. It is just an intimidation tactic. Needed because employees are less than honest.

That being said, it was the same here, but in the entire history of the company you know how many people have actually been fired for calling in sick excessively? ZERO.
 
wheelsup said:
But your company is union...so you're really not helping your cause here.
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I'm saying WITH a union you can make those calls without worrying about losing your job. Carpet dance with the chief and your union rep? Maybe. Termination? Not unless the company wants to lose an expensive lawsuit.

The sole reason for the change in policy was the Colgan crash, and airlines trying to save face. Don't kid yourself, the union on property had nothing to do with it, and if it did, it would have happened a long time ago.

That being said, it was the same here, but in the entire history of the company you know how many people have actually been fired for calling in sick excessively? ZERO.
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I'm not sure how many the company attempted to terminate, or actually did terminate. I KNOW Skywest terminated somebody, who eventually hired their own lawyer and got their job back, for making a fatigue call. You can search for it, there have been some threads about it here.
 
Jtrain, I asked about a company where pilots work 20 hours and sick. Can you please cite an example. Thank you.
 
jtrain609 said:
Ask your buddy if he wants his wife and kids on an airplane with a pair of sick pilots who have been up for 20 hours.

If he says yes, then tell him his anti union stance is perfectly acceptable.

If he says no, then tell him that's why we need unions.
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I've worked for a couple non-union shops (that is, companies without contracts), and have never experienced or witnessed this.
 
I think that jtrain's example is perfectly valid and it is not fair to ask for current examples of places where that takes place.

Why?

Because anywhere that has the type of management that would push that has had a pilot group that's smart enough to have already unionized.
 
Nick said:
I think that jtrain's example is perfectly valid and it is not fair to ask for current examples of places where that takes place.

Why?

Because anywhere that has the type of management that would push that has had a pilot group that's smart enough to have already unionized.
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Often the threat of unionization is enough to keep management on their toes, not the other way around. Example, Skywest, jetBlue, etc.
 
wheelsup said:
Oh dear.
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Unions were created back in the day to get what almost every employee gets today. OSHA, FMLA, etc. are all federal laws nowadays. As well as FARs in our case.
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Obviously you haven't been keeping up with the push to end all "burdensome regulations" that is taking place in the body politic right now, for example the minimum wage, OSHA (hazmat rules), and various others. If you believe what we have achieved today could not be taken away tomorrow you are a fool.
 
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