House, Senate pass 1500 rule, Rest rules, and more

[KLB]

I've only been in aviation for ten years. When I first started flight training back in 2000 (at a university with an aviation program), instructors were leaving to go to regionals with atleast 2000hrs total time. Some instructors were leaving earlier by doing PFT at some of the regionals. I was fully prepared to instruct for 3 to 4 years to make it to the next level. I began instructing in 2005. It took me only a year and three months to go from 300hrs to 1200hrs. It would have only taken me another 4 months to get to 1500hrs.

Even without this law being put into place, competitive hiring mins would have been more than a 1000hrs. When some of you guys get more experience you will begin to see why this law is a good law. Right now some of you are to inexperienced to know that you're inexperienced.

 

[WacoFan]

Yep. here it goes.....
:yeahthat::yeahthat:

I've actually made an ass out off myself pre and post college. I'm certain that if I were to get post-graduate degrees I would continue to make an ass out of myself. I think it is inevitable for me.

As for the people that are crushed by the weight of having to gain 1,500 hours...man, I get that. It is like being in a gulag. Nobody has had to pay dues in quite that harsh a manner. I mean...take my late Grandpa for instance...

1) Fly bombers in WW2.
2) After the war, still not have the time to be competetive for the airlines.
3) Flight instruct from 1946-1950 in Champs...while also flying in the ANG and working the night-shift at a grain elevator.
4) 1950 - Get called up by the National Guard - the AF/Army split had happened, so he gets the army - flying L-19's in Korea for a year+.
5) 1953 - Gets on with TWA. Fly the engine carrier for a year and a half (this was lower than being on reserve actually - basically the airlines version of freight-dog. 3350's were horribly unreliable too, so they were busy every night).

So...I give you this background and for the others that are depressed about the extremely hard road you have to climb to get the coveted $19k per year starting salary to fly at a regional. Historical context is a great thing to have if facing challenges and is funny for the rest of us.

 

[BeRich]

I don't care if it takes 1500 or 15,000 hours to get there, I'm gonna get there. I reckon the trick is to enjoy the journey.

:yeahthat:

I don't know why everybody sees the airlines as the only job that can be enjoyed. Quit whining about never being able to get to the airlines now that you need 1500 hours. Instruct. Don't like instructing? Fine. Find a different job. It's almost always taken at least 1500 hours to get hired by an airline anyways, so find something else to do for a while and enjoy getting there.

 

[wjmiller3]

I am way below the new FO minimums. I have no idea how i will ever get to that point unless i pay for the flights or become a CFI, for which i also need funds.

Banner tow, pipeline, areal survey, jumpers, ferrypilot, tours, ect. There are lots of ways, you just have to look....

 

[GlenA]

Banner tow, pipeline, areal survey, jumpers, ferrypilot, tours, ect. There are lots of ways, you just have to look....

Yup, just realize that you will have to reach 500 hours to get a lot of those for insurance reasons..CFIing is still one of the best ways to get at least to that point in my opinion. Also you have to be willing to go to the jobs if able. That's what I did, essentially was living out of my car for the past year and a half.

 

[Firebird2XC]

hah look at the snide comments when i reposted my first question... respect ? ahaha :bandit: must be smoking the good stuff


this 1500 hr rule will not change anything in terms of safety unless real change is made in off duty hour rules as well as in house training for flight crews.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/1550950-post5.html

Already addressed. See that link to specific post. I'll make it easy for you.

See below.

Congress Moves One Step Closer on First Officer Qualifications

On Thursday and Friday of this week, the House of Representatives and the Senate passed an extension to FAA funding since the FAA Reauthorization Bill is not yet ready for passage. Notably, in this extension bill, the House of Representatives attached many of the safety provisions that were previously part of the FAA Reauthorization Bill. Some of the primary safety enhancements are listed below:
1.Congress will be provided with an annual report on the condition of airline safety.

2.Within 90 days of the enactment of this law, the FAA will design and maintain an electronic pilot records database that will contain certificates maintained and applicable limitations, failures of tests for those licenses and ratings, summary of legal enforcement actions that were not subsequently overturned, air carrier flight hour and training records, air carrier discipline records, including reports of termination, and driving records from the state in which the pilot resides.

3.The FAA will establish an FAA rulemaking committee that will assist in establishing a rule enacting pilot mentoring and professional development, as well as reviewing current training regulations for possible enhancement. A new rule must be issued within three years of the enactment of this law.

4.The FAA will establish an FAA rulemaking committee that will review and develop regulations requiring enhanced stall recognition and recovery training, including full stalls. This ARC will also review and recommend changes to regulations overseeing the remedial training of pilots who experience difficulties in the training process. A new rule must be issued within three years of the enactment of this law.

5.Within one year of the enactment of this law, the FAA must finalize a new rule on pilot flight time and duty time limitations.

6.Within 90 days of the enactment of this law, each air carrier will have to submit to the FAA a fatigue risk management plan.

7.Within 24 months of the enactment of this law, the FAA will publish a final rule requiring each air carrier to have a Safety Management System (SMS) in place. Such SMS must include the establishment of an Advanced Qualification Program (AQP).

8.The FAA will establish an FAA rulemaking committee (which has already been established) that will review minimum qualifications for employment as an air carrier pilot. Additionally, this ARC will review current requirements for an Air Transport Pilot license.

9.Within three years from when the President signs this bill into law, all airline pilots will need to acquire an Airline Transport License, including those seeking pilot employment at an air carrier.

10.The FAA will establish an FAA rulemaking committee that will review and develop regulations enhancing the requirements for an Air Line Transport License that will include flight training, academic training, or operational experience that will prepare a pilot to perform the job of a modern airline pilot. The Air Line Transport License will continue to require a minimum of 1,500 flight hours except that specific academic training courses may be applied and credited toward the 1,500 flight hour requirement. A final rule must be enacted within three years from the date this bill becomes law.

Additionally, two weeks ago, the FAA called for the formation of an Aviation Rulemaking Committee (ARC) to formulate the tenets of a new rule covering First Officer Qualification requirements for employment under Part 121. ALPA’s Leja Noe, from the Pilot Training Committee will be the primary participant from ALPA and Chuck Hogeman, Chairman of ALPA’s Human Factors and Training Committee. There are nine other participants on the ARC that we are currently aware of, ALPA, CAPA, RAA, ATA, PCI, AABI, RAACA, AOPA, and NADA.

Bold and underline added by me. Have a nice day.

 

[nsmith2224]

Gentlemen, let me say apologize for making an ass of myself last nite at 3:00AM in the morning. It was very un professional of me, but I was in a fit of rage from a conversation with another pilot employed by a air carrier much below the ranks of Colgan. However, I would like to respectfully disagree with the majority of the high hopes this bill will bring, but I could be rightfully wrong just as well. I am a pilot, I want to fly, and I definitely want it to be a safe industry above all else!!! I would like to move on from the worst decade in aviation history here in the US, and maybe this could be a step in that direction, only time will tell. Anyhow, hopefully you can accept my apology, and we can move on. ATN PILOT, I do not have a 4 year college degree either, but that was my 2 sense with the subject.

Thanks

 

[Firebird2XC]

Gentlemen, let me say apologize for making an ass of myself last nite at 3:00AM in the morning. It was very un professional of me, but I was in a fit of rage from a conversation with another pilot employed by a air carrier much below the ranks of Colgan. However, I would like to respectfully disagree with the majority of the high hopes this bill will bring, but I could be rightfully wrong just as well. I am a pilot, I want to fly, and I definitely want it to be a safe industry above all else!!! I would like to move on from the worst decade in aviation history here in the US, and maybe this could be a step in that direction, only time will tell. Anyhow, hopefully you can accept my apology, and we can move on. ATN PILOT, I do not have a 4 year college degree either, but that was my 2 sense with the subject.

Thanks

All the more reason to take a breath and slow down before making a loaded statement in a 'crowded room'.

No worries. Sooner or later we all say something asinine on the forums on the innerwebs.

Ask me how I know.... :beer:

 

[GlenA]

I'm wondering if it would have been better for the bill to call for the pilots to have the time and experience requirements for an ATP certificate but not actually mandate them to have it prior to employment. This way the airline can give the ATP checkride during one of their sim checks and make it easier for those trying to work their way up...from a financial standpoint.

 

[cmill]

I'm wondering if it would have been better for the bill to call for the pilots to have the time and experience requirements for an ATP certificate but not actually mandate them to have it prior to employment. This way the airline can give the ATP checkride during one of their sim checks and make it easier for those trying to work their way up...from a financial standpoint.

I agree with that. Then again, ive decided im done spending money on rating, and im not getting my ATP until someone else pays for it.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

I'm wondering if it would have been better for the bill to call for the pilots to have the time and experience requirements for an ATP certificate but not actually mandate them to have it prior to employment. This way the airline can give the ATP checkride during one of their sim checks and make it easier for those trying to work their way up...from a financial standpoint.

That's what it says now, doesn't it? Before acting as a crew member. Going through systems and sim you're not a crew member. Or you could say that you don't have pilot employment until you pass your check ride, maybe you're hired as a trainee.

 

[mhcasey]

Sorry if I missed this in the discussion but I didn't want to read 8 pages of arguments.

Is there any provision in the new bill for military types? I'll probably be going on reserve status in about two years with ~ 1300 hours and a few hundred in Talons/Vipers.

 

[KLB]

I'm wondering if it would have been better for the bill to call for the pilots to have the time and experience requirements for an ATP certificate but not actually mandate them to have it prior to employment. This way the airline can give the ATP checkride during one of their sim checks and make it easier for those trying to work their way up...from a financial standpoint.

At "the company" you're not officially an employee of "the company" until you've passed the checkride. Even the seniority number is based on the day that you pass the checkride. I don't know how it is over on the regional side though.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Have you ever taken a 121 checkride, especially in a sim? It's one of the most straight forward, easy to game rides you will ever take. As was said before, it costs the airlines more to wash you out than keep you around.

BobDDuck, come take one of mine. When I was at the regional they were pretty lame. Now that I am freight you can come take one. Type rides are 3+ hrs. PT/PC's aren't give me's either. We routinely have multiple malfunctions, DME Arc, and NDB approaches train to lower than standard approaches.

I had so much crap happen during my time before the airlines that it really helped me when I got there. I had lost engines, lost equipment, dealt with "Customers" etc.

I think learning to interact with the people responsible for your paycheck is huge... and lots of people that didn't instruct miss that. I HATE listing to FO's swear in the cockpit, with the door open, and pax sitting up in row 1. I don't care how you feel, but, clean it up. When you get somebody who has been dealing with their customers on a 1 on 1 basis for the last 3 years, they seem to be a little more mature in some areas. Thats not to say i haven't met immature 40 yr olds.. but, typically, people who have done the work thing longer, seem to get it.

Also, gonna say, the people that put 3+years of work into getting to the regional value the job, the profession, and their work more. The 250 hr guys seem to be more concerned with getting theirs, and getting on.

There are always exceptions to the case.

For some reason, I feel like bringing up one of my biggest pet peeves, I *HATE* it when my FO's change a setting that I am responsible for, without telling me.

Excellent points and I feel the same. In regards to the switch I would suggest you bring it up to standard and the safety department also I'd brief FO not to do it before the flight. I generally have pretty good crews and appreciate when they ask or tell me that they are going to do something so I am aware of it. It's just good CRM IMO.

Sorry if I missed this in the discussion but I didn't want to read 8 pages of arguments.

Is there any provision in the new bill for military types? I'll probably be going on reserve status in about two years with ~ 1300 hours and a few hundred in Talons/Vipers.

I haven't seen one. Why should there be one? Just because you can fly an F-16 or other S.E. fighter doesn't mean you can fly a CRJ/737 or other AMEL transport. I have first hand experience with an a S.E. fighter jet pilot trying to get an AMEL Trasnport Jet type rating. V1 cuts were ugly to say the least as well as the instrument scan.

 

[GlenA]

At "the company" you're not officially an employee of "the company" until you've passed the checkride. Even the seniority number is based on the day that you pass the checkride. I don't know how it is over on the regional side though.

True, but we're also drawing pay, albeit training pay, and we filled out tax paper work that had our date of training as date of hire. So I would figure that all holds as long as we are on track through our checkride?

Anyway.. on my comment about the ATP cert vs just having the hours and experience for the ATP cert, I was basing that comment off bullet #9 in Firebird's post above. There it says that even those applying must have their ATP certificates..that would put an increased financial burden on prospective applicants..

 

[SteveC]

For some reason, I feel like bringing up one of my biggest pet peeves, I *HATE* it when my FO's change a setting that I am responsible for, without telling me...

We have this in our company Standard Operating Procedures section where we talk about who controls which switches during different phases of flight:

...However, in the interest of good crew resource management
(CRM), anytime either pilot changes the position of any switch, it should be verbally stated.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

We have this in our company Standard Operating Procedures section where we talk about who controls which switches during different phases of flight:

Yes, we have the same... it falls into the who CFI'd and who didn't. It seems that those who never were really in command while having more than 1 person up front, don't seem to mind. If the bulk of your PIC time is from flying with an instructor, then you don't really dig the CRM stuff yet. As a CFI you get used to stating switch positions so the student learns why you are doing something. That transfers to the 121 cockpit, without even thinking about it.

When you were receiving dual in a 172, you just put the lights on, b/c it was in a checklist. you could verbalize... or not.

The hard part for us right now, is that they changed the flows and checklists... so they have contradicting info. The through 10,000 climb flow calls for seatbelt sign off conditions permitting, but in our book, it says seatbelts on until reaching cruise altitude.

I pretty much always say book first, profiles second, so i want that switch on until cruise. Reality is, if somebody gets hurt in the back when the sign is off, I am going to be doing the carpet dance... so in the interest of my hide... tell me before you move it.

------------Drift----------
We also have it broken down into hand flying vs. auto flight etc. Part of the problem is that we just got a brand new CFM, with all new profiles, procedures, checklists, call outs and some new limits without ANY training. They handed it out, gave us a 25 question online test, and said here you go. I had the book for 1 DAY before it was in use. It's another story, and a large bull pile, but for another thread. Where that ties into this tread, If i had to face that, with a brand new, 250 hr FO who was hanging to the tail of the airplane by his teeth, it would be a MESS. With two of us up front with over 3,000 hours combined in the q400, it was a MESS.
-----------Back---------

I was luck with the new book to have a guy that had lots of time. He was able to think outside the box a bit, and acomplish his items when it made sense, and in a safe manner. I had to watch my stuff pretty tight, so I didn't have a lot of mental space left to be watching the guy next to me. Having somebody that was mature enough to know how to act, and experienced enough to do it right was a blessing.

I know lots of guys that were super low time FO's. They are good guys. I had the pleasure of flying with a bunch of them as soon as I upgraded in the 1900... 2 of us going into LGA, pretty much for the first time, Me brand new to the left seat, FO brand new to everything... we made a lot of small mistakes, and we got lucky. I don't want to go through that again.
Some of us are making a stink about it.. but, hey... "we fixed it."
*edit*
I know my G.U.M sucks... i'll fix it later when i can put some time to my thoughts.

 

[DCTNstudentpilot1987]

I haven't seen one. Why should there be one? Just because you can fly an F-16 or other S.E. fighter doesn't mean you can fly a CRJ/737 or other AMEL transport. I have first hand experience with an a S.E. fighter jet pilot trying to get an AMEL Trasnport Jet type rating. V1 cuts were ugly to say the least as well as the instrument scan.

The bill requires multi-time for the ATP certificate. How much will be determined by the FAA admin. Those military guys in F16 and F35 will have to get their MEI or fly P135 cargo before going to the airlines. The military is replacing most of the twin engine fighters with the F35. Even the F22 will be replaced by the F35. The only military pilots with enough multi-time to get the ATP will be military cargo drivers and air re-fueling planes. If you want a clogged system just wait for military guys to not go to the airlines or compete with CFIs for 135 jobs and MEI spots. Military guys tend to be good pilots overall and completed a rigorous training course. Now, most of the SE fighter pilots will stay in the military instead of going to the airlines. SE fighters will in the coming years be the majority of fighter aircraft. I thought military pilots were acceptable to pilot advanced fighter aircraft with an unstable airframe at low hours because of their rigorous training. If they can do that, I would think the transition to a stable platform of a civilian airliner with a less than rigorous training regime than the military could be done fairly easily for most of them. If they couldnt the airlines wouldnt have allowed them to convert SE fighter time to ME time when hiring them.

Is it easy for those in the military to switch from an F16 to an F18 or KC130?

 

[jspeed87]

Is there anyone who has 1500 hours in a 121 passenger jet after getting their commercial? So what's the point? I understand if Cessna 172 Airlines was hiring, it would make sense. Why not create ground schools that transition the 250 GA pilot to become an Airline Pilot? This law does not make sense in my opinion..

 

[ryan1234]

Is it easy for those in the military to switch from an F16 to an F18 or KC130?

The F-16 is primarily an AF asset (very limited Navy as well)... the F/A-18 is a Navy/Marine asset, and the KC-130 is a Marine asset.



I'm not sure if the centerline thrust (or what the FAA describes as that) is applicable... maybe it is?