House, Senate pass 1500 rule, Rest rules, and more

SurferLucas said:
Says the PPL...are you just dreading having to become a CFI to get to 1500 hours?

I can tell you from experience, that being a CFI teaches you more about flying than you can even imagine.
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Time out. I never said anything bad about instructing. I am working towards that. That is my goal. I cannot wait to do it as a matter of fact. I could not agree with you more in how valuable it is. I am just saying that if a CFI has a shot to go to an airline at 1000 hours, let the airline decide if they are ready.
 
subpilot said:
Section B does not say "all current 121 pilots"...it says "all flight crewmembers." This would encompass new hires as they would become a flight crewmember. The only caviate I see is that it may be possible to be hired with a commerical as long as you aquire your ATP before flying the line.
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Where does it say that "all flight crewmembers" only applies to new hires?
 
USMCmech said:
No, I think the fact that both pilot bypassed mastering the fundamentals had EVERYTHING to do with the outcome.

If both of them had spent a year doing stalls with students they might have recovered. Instead, they went right to 121 land where they never saw a real stall.

RE: credit for college aviation courses. Even if ERAU grads get credit for 500 of those hours, it will still make people spend some real time in the air before they get to fly a large jet.


To all the people crying about how this is pulling up the ladder. Actually it is reverting to the basic minimums that were always there (except for 06-07). 2500 TT and 1000 multi was the basic minimums for a Turboprop FO for a long time before the RJ boom started recently.
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SpiraMirabilis said:
You probably do more stalls in your 1000 hours flight instructing than you do for the rest of your career combined, I don't think it's a good idea to skip it.
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The assumption here is that people will suddenly all decide to become flight instructors. Just so happens Im looking to buy a fleet of 150's in which I will get an applicant 1000 hours flight time for only 35K. in 10 weeks you will be qualified for a position as a first officer aboard a big shiny jet!

SpiraMirabilis said:
The captain didn't when he first started working at a 121 carrier, Gulfstream. Neither did the FO. Maybe he would have done a few more stalls with students if he didn't buy his way in at 250hrs.
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SpiraMirabilis said:
What do you believe in then? What's an alternative? Because right now there is a magic number it's 250hours. Do you have some idea to get rid of this magic number?
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pass a 121 checkride that would show you are qualified to operate as a SECOND in command. It seems everyone is saying the airlines are hiring people NOT qualified and putting them in the right seat...so it sounds like the problem is with the airline training. This 1500 hours is useless. people will find a way to get the hours with out really caring how they get it (see above).

The other issue i see is a new group of people who have absolutely NO desire to teach, becoming CFI's because they don't have the money to get their 1500 hours with Tim's timebuilding flying service. Now we have someone looking out the right window of the bugsmasher day dreaming about his shiny jet, instead of paying attention to the fact that their student is skidding base to final at 45kts.
 
wheelsup said:
As a CFI you demonstrate a few times and the student does the majority of the stalls. It's not like you are doing the stalls FOR the students...

Debunked
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It sure doesn't sound like you have much time as a CFI... Either that, or you must not have done stalls with your students very often.

I never truly started to develop a "feel" and confidence for an airplane until after I started instructing for awhile. I got to the point where I was so far ahead of the airplane I could tell five steps ahead of whatever the student was doing. I was placed into many strange maneuvers, including stall and incipient spins, that I had very little exposure to up through my commercial training.

Of course, prior to my experience as a CFI I thought I had been there and done that. It's funny how little I knew, yet never had any clue...
 
mooneyguy said:
pass a 121 checkride that would show you are qualified to operate as a SECOND in command. It seems everyone is saying the airlines are hiring people NOT qualified and putting them in the right seat...so it sounds like the problem is with the airline training. This 1500 hours is useless. people will find a way to get the hours with out really caring how they get it (see above).

The other issue i see is a new group of people who have absolutely NO desire to teach, becoming CFI's because they don't have the money to get their 1500 hours with Tim's timebuilding flying service. Now we have someone looking out the right window of the bugsmasher day dreaming about his shiny jet, instead of paying attention to the fact that their student is skidding base to final at 45kts.
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Thank you for saying it better than I could.
 
DCTNstudentpilot1987 said:
Wont furloughed guys that dont have an ATP get fired if they dont have an ATP in 3 years, assuming they are still furloughed? The bill says all 121 pilots must have an ATP in 3 years. Unless furloughed guys are recalled and get enough time for the ATP, I think many could lose their job.
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yes. Probably some kind of furlough until they got the required time, I would think. They would at least need the ATP requirements... You can get the certificate in the check ride when you go to requal and you'd have it before acting as a crew member.

Second, this bill is only hurts the mom and pop FBO. I bet you all anything that all the flight academies will do what Ari Ben Aviator did and become a certified flight college. The ERAU and UND students will likely be hired with 250. Nowhere in the bill does it state a maximum of what the students can credit. When times get hard and there is a need for 250 hour pilots, you can bet the FAA administrator will lower the minimums to 250 hours flight time for the Universities and academies that certify themselves as a university. The bill doesnt specify how much time in classroom can be substituted. In theory, it can be up to 1250 hours.
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I don't see that happening. For one, they're going to hash out ahead of time how many hours an "education" is worth. I don't think it will be that much. And the process to change it later is involved... And the administrator can't really say oh well the classes have just gotten a lot better is all. I'm counting on people who know something advising the FAA about this, ALPA for one.
If you figure they let them knock 300 hours off for your degree, all ERAU et all will do is incorporate that into their marketing, ie going to Riddle will save you 35,000$ in rental fees!!
 
mooneyguy said:
The assumption here is that people will suddenly all decide to become flight instructors. Just so happens I'm looking to buy a fleet of 150's in which I will get an applicant 1000 hours flight time for only 35K. in 10 weeks you will be qualified for a position as a first officer aboard a big shiny jet!
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Great, 10 weeks of flying you butt off.

Bet you learn something during that time and probably scare your self silly once or twice.



Regardless,

It's the law now, not going to get changed. We'll just have to deal with it and see what lasting effect it has on this industry. I agree that there may have been better ways to acomplish the goal, but the insanity of 2007 should not be repeated.

I think that ultimatley it will be mostly positive, but we'll see.
 
The current SIC check ride at 121 airlines is already to ATP, ie PIC standards. Do you want it to get easier, mooneyguy? I'm not sure what you mean.
You say get stricter but how will you mandate this? When you get hired at an airline, or any company where you go to sim the employer WANTS you to pass. If you don't you cost them maybe $10-20,000. There is always teaching the check ride... Should we get rid of APDs and have every 121 check ride be done with an inspector just to be sure they're not taking it too easy?
 
USMCmech said:
Great, 10 weeks of flying you butt off.

Bet you learn something during that time and probably scare your self silly once or twice.

Regardless,

It's the law now, not going to get changed. We'll just have to deal with it and see what lasting effect it has on this industry. I agree that there may have been better ways to acomplish the goal, but the insanity of 2007 should not be repeated.

I think that ultimatley it will be mostly positive, but we'll see.
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wanna bet??? I had two 150's in the past. I can take off pull the power and log 4 hours hovering over the airport...hey its flight time!
Seriously, I did have a 150, and yes its possible to fly with little to negative ground speed. I did however try to make some fun trips with my time, but you will have that person who only wants the hobbs to click away!!!

and yes, it does not good to compain now...however isnt that what an internet forum is for!?!?!:D
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
I don't see that happening. For one, they're going to hash out ahead of time how many hours an "education" is worth. I don't think it will be that much. And the process to change it later is involved... And the administrator can't really say oh well the classes have just gotten a lot better is all. I'm counting on people who know something advising the FAA about this, ALPA for one.
If you figure they let them knock 300 hours off for your degree, all ERAU et all will do is incorporate that into their marketing, ie going to Riddle will save you 35,000$ in rental fees!!
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Where is the language that says the administrator cannot raise or lower the times whenever he wants to? Right now the regionals have no problems finding 1500 hour people. In 5-10 years when the retirements pick up and hopefully growth as well, nobody will remember Colgan 3407 and people will want pilots to fill the seats. The families by then may have all moved on. Even if they stayed together, the law as passed allows for the administrator to substitute class time for air time with no set limit. Unless there is a set limit, it doesnt matter how anyone values or pays how much for an education so long as there is a demand for 250 hour pilots.
 
I always thought one of the biggest traits of a pilots was to seek out challenges. Not run face first into roadblocks. But that's not what I'm hearing from my peers right now.

Luckily, I actually like flying airplanes. Though 121 is my long-term goal, I would love to be exposed to as many different airplanes and types of flying as I can on the way there. Hopefully I can get into 135 first down the road, but either way, I think there is MUCH more of a sense of accomplishment to slave away and work your ass off for 1500 hours as there is to enroll at ATP and get in the right seat of a jet in 90 days.

But that's just me.
 
DCTN, There is none, but he would have to go through the whole NPRM process which is not agile and would have to explain why he thinks now that the credit should be increased. Politically it isn't something they would do. Whatever credit they set in the beginning will be it, it won't be changed after that. IMHO.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
DCTN, There is none, but he would have to go through the whole NPRM process which is not agile and would have to explain why he thinks now that the credit should be increased. Politically it isn't something they would do. Whatever credit they set in the beginning will be it, it won't be changed after that. IMHO.
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People were demanding the government do something in 2007 when NWA had all those crew cancellations. All it will take is that to replay itself and airlines telling passengers that the govt regulations are to blame for the FAA to change whatever rules they might have set. People didnt like tarmac waits so they got that rule. People wanted experienced pilots so they got this bill. When people want cheap flights and dont care about crew qualifications as much, they will get the FAA to relax hours on college students. The political process is slow until there is pressure put on them to do something fast. Congress didnt use to be fast at all. Now bills go flying through quickly with enough pressure.
 
subpilot said:
Section B does not say "all current 121 pilots"...it says "all flight crewmembers." This would encompass new hires as they would become a flight crewmember. The only caviate I see is that it may be possible to be hired with a commerical as long as you aquire your ATP before flying the line.
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:pop: I see your point... I read "all flight crewmembers" to read as "all current 121 pilots"
 
People aren't going to make demands for less experienced airline pilots. No matter how they, ie RATA, spins it thats what it will be.

The 3 hour delay thing came about because some politicians saw it as an easy way to score some points. No politician will back something where the other party can and will just say "So senator kitten thinks there should be less experienced airline pilots in the cockpit."

Sorry, just won't be done. I'll bet you $5. That's all I can afford though since I fly for a living. Its one thing to say airline pilots should be less experienced than 1500 hours now, when the current requirement is only 250 hours because it is still an increase. But after the requirement has been 1500? It will never go backwards.
 
So, I'm confused about somethings and hopefully someone can help me out? Does this law immediately go into effect if signed on Sunday? or will it have to go to public forum first? Also, I know it said that current 121 crew members have 3 years to get their ATP license, but does anyone know how that would affect those of us (like me) that are currently in ground school for an airline? we all had a hire date of a little over a week ago, but since we still haven't taken our check rides yet I guess they could see us as probationary, or would we be grandfathered in? I'm just wondering where that would leave me as I am about 400 hours short of the 1500 and it would really suck to suddenly have to leave and find a job for another 400 hours just to get back here...I would honestly scream a bit.. :)
 
You have 3 years to get ATP requirements from the date the law is enacted. Everyone does, it just states that 3 years from that date all crew members have to have an ATP. I wouldn't worry about it, even if it came down to the line for some e all an airline would do would be to put them on the mandatory call me first list (like they do for high mins captains) and fly the he'll out of them for months leading up to the deadline. A year from now they could hire someone with only 1000 hours and it still wouldn't effect him or her.
 
cool, was just making sure since I'm just on this side of the line. Just would be a bad timing thing for me :)
 
I'm interested in seeing how these new credits/etc will effect the USA with regards to ICAO. A lot of new ATPs issued with an ICAO limitation? Airlines used to not let you in with one of those.
 
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