A-300F4-622R
Well-Known Member
And it's because you guys willingly take those low pay and low benefit regional jobs.
"The High Cost of Low Experience"
- Thread starter C150J
- Start date
And it's because you guys willingly take those low pay and low benefit regional jobs.
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
Not fully accurate by any means. Anyone including myself that has taken a regional job is partially to blame, I won't argue that. But virtually every pilot now at a 'major' came from some low paying crap job as well. And of course giving up scope didn't help either. I have said it before and I will say it again...
No one is innocent on our dilemma!
Pointing the finger, pulling up the ladder, denying jumpseats, etc will get us nowhere fast. In-fight all we want, but unless we pull together we will continue to lose.
Pilots can and do seem to hurt each other enough in this regard, with management whipsawing making that matter even worse.
Though I fully agree with the concept of pulling together, how would you personally propose this be done, what with all the individual needs and agendas of the different airlines out there. IE- Pilots want to pull together and be unified, yet still be insured that they're not "left behind" when it comes to different items of interest? Unity will only survive if everyone is still "getting theirs" to some extent.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Not fully accurate? It's not even in the ballpark.
Goldmember
Well-Known Member
The jobs of flying mail in a twin beech and checks in a navajo are virtually gone. Corporate flying 15 years ago has gone from a couple passengers flying in a Baron to now flying citations and Learjets. And to get a gig like that you're looking at having at least 1000 multi and previous jet experience. Well, looks like the only place to get that is the airlines. Sorry, but that's the backwards way of it. And regardless of what everyone says to be PC, the airlines are the safest way to travel so something has to be working right.
I love how people are saying "hey you inexperienced 21 year old kid with 500 hours and 50 multi, go out and get a night freight gig, go fly a piece of junk aircraft in the worst kind of icing and see how things come out." Why don't you just put a gun in my hand and let's play Russian Roullette. You guys actually want young fresh EXTREMELY GREEN pilots to learn this way? --And I know what you're going to say after the inevitable accident: " Well, he never should have launched because the forecast was for icing conditions yada yada." Thanks Monday morning quarterback, guy who basically told me I HAD TO GO OUT AND BUILD EXPERIENCE THIS WAY. (Yes, there are good places to work out there so I don't need your comments about that.) You tell me, what is going to happen to me if I look at the boss and say "Doesn't look good tonight." He looks back and says "Pick up your final paycheck on Friday." We have to go and if I HAVE TO GO, I'd rather go in a reliable, redundant system aircraft with standard procedures for handling those conditions.
--As an aside, bonanza goes down in the winter here in Louisville last year killing the 21 year old pilot who was flying urine samples. Kinda hits close to home.
I love how people are saying "hey you inexperienced 21 year old kid with 500 hours and 50 multi, go out and get a night freight gig, go fly a piece of junk aircraft in the worst kind of icing and see how things come out." Why don't you just put a gun in my hand and let's play Russian Roullette. You guys actually want young fresh EXTREMELY GREEN pilots to learn this way? --And I know what you're going to say after the inevitable accident: " Well, he never should have launched because the forecast was for icing conditions yada yada." Thanks Monday morning quarterback, guy who basically told me I HAD TO GO OUT AND BUILD EXPERIENCE THIS WAY. (Yes, there are good places to work out there so I don't need your comments about that.) You tell me, what is going to happen to me if I look at the boss and say "Doesn't look good tonight." He looks back and says "Pick up your final paycheck on Friday." We have to go and if I HAVE TO GO, I'd rather go in a reliable, redundant system aircraft with standard procedures for handling those conditions.
--As an aside, bonanza goes down in the winter here in Louisville last year killing the 21 year old pilot who was flying urine samples. Kinda hits close to home.
A-300F4-622R
Well-Known Member
And I left without trying to make that crap job a career crap job by destroying the career job I was trying to get.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
It is tough, and not like it used to be due the reduction in a number of jobs like this: IE- traffic watch going automated with freeway cameras in many markets and not needing as many planes. Check hauling going out of style with the reduction of check usage, though 135 general cargo is fairly steady, with mainly "fly by night" operators opening and closing. Somewhat tougher times than yesteryear.
crazyjaydawg
Well-Known Member
In the previous month's article (sep 09) he talks about playing on a laptop in the cockpit. I think he might need to have his cert revoked!
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
Agreed. My Utopian answer is the National Seniorty List under one union. It would hurt some in the short term (including likely myself) but in the long run I think it could be the solution we have been looking for. Of course implementing it and figuring it all out is full of complex issues that I can't possibly address now.
But is it realistic? Who knows. Free market forces and individuals with their own agendas will likely keep it from happening. I wish the answers were simple, but nothing ever is heh?
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
Agreed. My Utopian answer is the National Seniorty List under one union. It would hurt some in the short term (including likely myself) but in the long run I think it could be the solution we have been looking for. Of course implementing it and figuring it all out is full of complex issues that I can't possibly address now.
But is it realistic? Who knows. Free market forces and individuals with their own agendas will likely keep it from happening. I wish the answers were simple, but nothing ever is heh?
I totally agree with you. Really, I don't know if my previous question has an answer that will please the majority. That seems to be the biggest hurdle, at least to me.
Goldmember
Well-Known Member
"Initiating conversation is half da battle..." in my best Big Daddy voice for those who don't get the quote. 
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
Yeah I agree. The majority will never likely be pleased, if the time ever comes for real action some tough decisions will need to be made. And in case my Utopian dream doesn't come to fruition and we continue our downhill slide, I shall continue to keep working on my side businesses
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
No, of course i'm not saying that. 135 PIC minimums require at least 1200TT.
Well, I can't say what YOU would do. Here's what I did.
ME: "Hey Frank, it's Mike. I'm in Nashville. Airnet just landed with a load of ice on the airplane. I'm going to delay a few hours."
FRANK: "A few hours???!! How long?"
ME: "Well, probably about 3 hours when its forecast to clear up."
FRANK: "3 hours? You get in that airplane and launch or you're fired!"
ME: "Ok Frank. Keys are in the airplane. Seeya." <click>
(5 minutes pass) (FBO phone rings)
FBO CSR: "Mike, phone's for you. It's Frank" (this was before cellphones)
ME: "Hey Frank. What's up?"
FRANK: "Just get the work there when you can and call me when you arrive."
-----------------
Learning how to say "No" is just the kind of experiences that I found so valuable about single pilot night freight. You worked so hard for your certificates... why would you let some flunky push you into risking them? (much less life and limb)
I'm not 121 anymore but heck... if you would be willing to let "Frank" push you around, then what good are you in the right seat of a CRJ?
A-300F4-622R
Well-Known Member
I see your point, but the argument can be made that you could takeoff in those conditions and safely make it to your destination. You might be uncomfortable with it at first, but that's the kind of experience newbies need. They need to find out what their limits truly are, not just what they think they are.
Goldmember
Well-Known Member
"OK Frank, keys in the airplane, Seeya."
I know I made the right decision. I go looking for another gig. Guy interviewing (Not a pilot) asks why I left the last job. I tell him the whole story, feeling very confident I have made the right decision. The guy interviewing has one of two thoughts: 1.) This guy left his bosses airplane in Nashville and just walked out and when I need him to make flight or I'll have my biggest customer up my butt he won't do it. 2.) This guy is a solid pilot and is hired. From the operators I've seen and met, they're going with #1. My boss here in Louisville likes to tell the story about how he was flying a cheyenne back in the day and how he wanted to cancel due to weather and a bunch on inop stuff in the plane. The guy looks at him, sticks his finger in his coffee, pulls it out and says "see how quick that hole closed up? That's how quick I can replace you." Now that may be a nose growing story, but it has some truth to it. If I'm in the right seat of the CRJ, I don't have the final decision anyway. I will state my opinion based on my experience and my assessment of the situation, but after that, the captain makes the final call and hopefully I can learn why he made that call and what the outcomes were. That's how I learn to be a captain.
I know I made the right decision. I go looking for another gig. Guy interviewing (Not a pilot) asks why I left the last job. I tell him the whole story, feeling very confident I have made the right decision. The guy interviewing has one of two thoughts: 1.) This guy left his bosses airplane in Nashville and just walked out and when I need him to make flight or I'll have my biggest customer up my butt he won't do it. 2.) This guy is a solid pilot and is hired. From the operators I've seen and met, they're going with #1. My boss here in Louisville likes to tell the story about how he was flying a cheyenne back in the day and how he wanted to cancel due to weather and a bunch on inop stuff in the plane. The guy looks at him, sticks his finger in his coffee, pulls it out and says "see how quick that hole closed up? That's how quick I can replace you." Now that may be a nose growing story, but it has some truth to it. If I'm in the right seat of the CRJ, I don't have the final decision anyway. I will state my opinion based on my experience and my assessment of the situation, but after that, the captain makes the final call and hopefully I can learn why he made that call and what the outcomes were. That's how I learn to be a captain.
A-300F4-622R
Well-Known Member
What happens when the captain ends up being a wimp and not going. How are you ever going to learn if you would have made it?
Goldmember
Well-Known Member
Every Captain isn't going to be a wimp, I imagine I'll be flying with one or two and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who you want to imitate and who you want to stay away from. Do you want to be like Terrell Owens or Jerry Rice? Both get the job done at an extremely high level, one's a jackass and the other is a real professional, doing things the right way.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
I'd rather be a wimp and alive to argue with an overlord than be a hardass and carried by my 6 best friends.