"The High Cost of Low Experience"

[C150J]

Thought Les Abend's article was excellent.

http://www.flyingmag.com/jumpseat/1809/the-high-cost-of-low-experience.html?print_page=y

 

[Socal321]

These threads are getting old. She had 1700 at time or hire and 2500 at accident. He had 3500.

 

[tjvpa28]

These threads are getting old. She had 1700 at time or hire and 2500 at accident. He had 3500.

:yeahthat:

 

[kellwolf]

Eh, I got to the part where he basically said the "voice of experience" told him he wasn't ready at 1100/60. Wouldn't that be the "voice of LACK of experience?" He also said he didn't interview with confidence (ie didn't interview "well"). Maybe it's not always about flight time.

 

[C150J]

I was more focused on how the media lambasted the captain's credentials, and how Les Abend himself failed a checkride. I agree with you guys about the experience argument.

 

[Socal321]

Eh, I got to the part where he basically said the "voice of experience" told him he wasn't ready at 1100/60. Wouldn't that be the "voice of LACK of experience?" He also said he didn't interview with confidence (ie didn't interview "well"). Maybe it's not always about flight time.

Good point. Just because you meet flight minimums on a website does not mean you are ready. You have to ask yourself if you actually are able and can actually do the job that's required of you. Just because he did not feel ready at 1100 hours does not mean that's the case for everyone.

 

[surreal1221]

And some of us are able to say "yes." Perhaps not solely based off of flight experience, but the total person concept. Previous aviation experience, previous professional experience, etc., combined with our "flight experience."

But I want to stroke Les's 'stache

 

[A-300F4-622R]

These threads are getting old. She had 1700 at time or hire and 2500 at accident. He had 3500.

They both had minimal experience in adverse conditions.

 

[joliet]

Does your Grandpa know you pretend to be him on the internet?

 

[E_Dawg]

The article is all fluff which is why I stopped reading Flying. Les is just going on about the seniority system but not presenting any alternatives. Nor did he expand on the "high cost of low experience"; how a higher time flight crew would potentially perform better. The fact that he was a 24yr old Twin Otter captain just goes to show the system we have now has been the same for quite some time. The only difference is the regional planes these days are mostly jets.

 

[Socal321]

They both had minimal experience in adverse conditions.

Just like the thousands that were newly hired at a regional, and that's not what caused this crash. Ice light is on, anti ice on, repeat. What is your point? It's hard to get adverse condition experience flying a 172 around the pattern. It is the responsibility of the company not to hire people that haven't been through a cloud or haven't seen snow in their training if that's the environment they'll be flying in, especially since colgan flys props.

 

[C150J]

Just like the thousands that were newly hired at a regional, and that's not what caused this crash. Ice light is on, anti ice on, repeat. What is your point? It's hard to get adverse condition experience flying a 172 around the pattern. It is the responsibility of the company not to hire people that haven't been through a cloud or haven't seen snow in their training if that's the environment they'll be flying in, especially since colgan flys props.

And that's where airlines and professional organizations have miserably failed. It boggles my mind why such prerequisites aren't required in this industry, yet microbiology is for health professionals. A skeletal FAA curriculum versus thousands of hours of shadowing rounds and coursework.

 

[A-300F4-622R]

Just like the thousands that were newly hired at a regional, and that's not what caused this crash. Ice light is on, anti ice on, repeat. What is your point? It's hard to get adverse condition experience flying a 172 around the pattern. It is the responsibility of the company not to hire people that haven't been through a cloud or haven't seen snow in their training if that's the environment they'll be flying in, especially since colgan flys props.

So pilots that take airline jobs with no adverse weather experience are not responsible for handling an adverse weather event incorrectly? I say that they are irresponsible for taking the job in the first place with no experience.

 

[C150J]

So pilots that take airline jobs with no adverse weather experience are not responsible for handling an adverse weather event incorrectly? I say that they are irresponsible for taking the job in the first place with no experience.

Keep in mind that it is the airline's corporate responsibility to ensure that its flight crew meet the appropriate standards to operate. Making pilots make such a determination is like letting your black lab decide when it's ready for its next meal.

 

[Kingairer]

Les Abend....I read an article he wrote not to long ago ...he mentioned he was a checkairmen about 4 times in it, and really wrote about how much he loves himself. Anything he writes is for the novice pilot who things airline flying is something like a fairy tale. Him and Richard Collins need to fly off into the sunset of writing.

 

[A-300F4-622R]

Keep in mind that it is the airline's corporate responsibility to ensure that its flight crew meet the appropriate standards to operate. Making pilots make such a determination is like letting your black lab decide when it's ready for its next meal.

So are you saying that if an airline dispatched you into weather you are not experienced in, you would not go?

 

[C150J]

So are you saying that if an airline dispatched you into weather you are not experienced in, you would not go?

I'm saying that an airline shouldn't hire people that aren't experienced, and that they need to make such a determination. Thorough IOE, a continual learning program (not just checking the box in recurrent ground school), and REAL professional development would help solve these problems.

No, I wouldn't go/land. If you think landing at Mu readings of 25-35 and heavy crosswinds components makes you a more experienced pilot, that's fine.

 

[L-16B]

Just like the thousands that were newly hired at a regional, and that's not what caused this crash. Ice light is on, anti ice on, repeat. What is your point? It's hard to get adverse condition experience flying a 172 around the pattern. It is the responsibility of the company not to hire people that haven't been through a cloud or haven't seen snow in their training if that's the environment they'll be flying in, especially since colgan flys props.

Both had plenty of experience since they took their first flight lesson ever. I was taught from an early age that when u level off from a decent, u have to push the power back up or you will stall. Ice, no ice, ifr or vfr, doesnt make a difference. I don't see what operation experience or adverse weather has to do with pushing up the throttles. That's basic airmanship in my book.

He didn't even push the throttles to the detent (when he could have gone way past the detent for max rated power) after the stick shaker.

 

[joliet]

Both had plenty of experience since they took their first flight lesson ever. I was taught from an early age that when u level off from a decent, u have to push the power back up or you will stall. Ice, no ice, ifr or vfr, doesnt make a difference. I don't see what operation experience or adverse weather has to do with pushing up the throttles. That's basic airmanship in my book.

He didn't even push the throttles to the detent (when he could have gone way past the detent for max rated power) after the stick shaker.

Agreed. Everything else people post about this accident is crap.

 

[Goldmember]

You can't get experience in something until you do it. If they HAD experience with ice, we'd be talking about the crew not having enough experience with the aircraft. If they had experience with the aircraft, then we'd have to hear about them not having enough Crew Resource Management skills yada yada yada. Fact of the matter is, if these two had crashed a Baron flying freight into icing conditions it would have made news for 10 minutes and then never heard of again.

And my personal fav is all these regional guys who say "I wasn't ready to fly a jet at 1000 hours." Hmm, don't see many of you guys resigning when you get out on the line. Funny how this quote comes out years into your career. What you guys were doing when you were "uncomfortable" or "behind the airplane" was building experience. I can fly a 172 for 10,000 hours in all sorts of weather but I'll still be behind the airplane if I get in the jet. Being uncomfortable is a good thing for people like me, it lets me know I need to bust my butt studying, learning, and paying attention and not getting complacent at any phase of flight so I don't make a mistake...end rant.