Pilots Loading Bags? Good or bad...

[tonyw]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Honestly, from a fit person it sounds pretty ridiculous, and again I'd rather just hear someone say they aren't paid to do it....:dunno:

There are professional athletes -- and I am sure you won't say you're in better shape than they are -- who have gone on the DL for sneezing and throwing out their back. Or for tearing their Achilles when stepping down a curb.

But I like your viewpoint better. If it's not my job to do something, I ain't doing it.

 

[SoCalAprch]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

I always try to defend airline pilots when all the other airline employees claim the pilots don't give a crap about the company and feel they are above being part of the "team". This thread would prove one hell of a point for those people.

I'll make sure next time a passenger needs to board their flight but the wheelchair contractor hasn't shown up, they're SOL because its not in my job description to push the wheelchairs, we pay contractors to do that, and I'm not going to do their job for free.

Im all about taking one for the team and hustling to get flights out on time if it's in my job description, however Im not gonna do someone elses job. Do you think that the 747 pilots making 300K a year back in the glory days were out throwing bags so they could block out on time? Hell no... Your just degrading the profession even more. All of us Regional guys are grossly underpaid and treated like crap and you think that its OK to take one for the company? I do my job as professionally as possible, however Im not about to start doing someone elses job with no extra compensation just to take one for the team. Its so stupid to hear everyone bitch and moan about how so and so regional treats us like crap and I can't afford a crash pad and how its just a race to the bottom yet some of these same people are all for throwing bags and "helping the company out".

Keep drinking the Kool Aid..

 

[SeanD]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

There are professional athletes -- and I am sure you won't say you're in better shape than they are -- who have gone on the DL for sneezing and throwing out their back. Or for tearing their Achilles when stepping down a curb.

But I like your viewpoint better. If it's not my job to do something, I ain't doing it.

Seriously, this just happened to me not long ago. I am fairly in shape I would like to believe. It was early and I didn't have a chance to properly stretch. That's my excuse.

 

[derg]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

This thread makes me sad. I think a lot of people forgot where they came from. I do a lot of things that aren't listed in my job description and I don't P&M like a lot of the jet jockey's I am hearing on this thread. Suck it up and get the job done Ladies.

I crawled through a baggage door today to open a skyhawk door we couldn't get open from the outside. Was it mine or my student's airplane? No. Was I on the clock or getting paid to help out a fellow co-worker? No. I am just not a tool and am willing to help other's on my team get the job done.

Well, my best advice is to be careful at work, it's a much more perilous place than many people realize.

We also live in a litigious world where if you throw your back out improperly lifting something, the insurer is going to ask:

a. Was the insured performing outside of their job scope?
b. Was the insured properly trained to do the job?
c. Was the insured properly equipped to do the job?

If the answer is no, the insurer is under no obligation to pay and you're going to be at home eating away your sick bank. And when the sick bank runs out, all of the good will in the world is not going to pay your mortgage.

Your OJI administrator may insist that your ground personnel wear high visibility vests, knee protection, heavy lift straps, eye protection and have gone through training on how to properly heavy objects.

Your company wants to pay as little as possible for workmen's comp insurance because margins are thin.

Now if you jump down there as John Q. Pilot, wearing only your uniform and no other protection then throw your back out, get poked in the eye crawling out of the cargo bin and then run into by a baggage cart in the dark, you've already broken the obligation that the company agreed to uphold in order to be insured.

The airline business is a low margin game and I'm pretty sure they're not going to say, "Well, you had good intentions so we're going to take care of your family in the interim, just to be good guys."

I know a 777 captain with 5 kids that got sick on a layover from a disease endemic to the country he was assigned to fly to, but the OJI administrator denied that his sickness had anything to do with the performance of his job and due to circumstances with his illness, he's going to be out on 50% for at least a year.

I'm trying to be nice about this an warn you guys that you need to be careful and not so "I'm going to go deadlift a 100# crate on the ramp because if I get hurt, well, I'm young and tough so it'll never happen to me, and if it did, I'm covered!" because you're not.

Do what you want man, just don't be one of the hundreds that have written me a "Dear Dough, I wish I had listened sooner" email.

 

[jhugz]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Well, my best advice is to be careful at work, it's a much more perilous place than many people realize.

We also live in a litigious world where if you throw your back out improperly lifting something, the insurer is going to ask:

a. Was the insured performing outside of their job scope?
b. Was the insured properly trained to do the job?
c. Was the insured properly equipped to do the job?

If the answer is no, the insurer is under no obligation to pay and you're going to be at home eating away your sick bank. And when the sick bank runs out, all of the good will in the world is not going to pay your mortgage.

Your OJI administrator may insist that your ground personnel wear high visibility vests, knee protection, heavy lift straps, eye protection and have gone through training on how to properly heavy objects.

Your company wants to pay as little as possible for workmen's comp insurance because margins are thin.

Now if you jump down there as John Q. Pilot, wearing only your uniform and no other protection then throw your back out, get poked in the eye crawling out of the cargo bin and then run into by a baggage cart in the dark, you've already broken the obligation that the company agreed to uphold in order to be insured.

The airline business is a low margin game and I'm pretty sure they're not going to say, "Well, you had good intentions so we're going to take care of your family in the interim, just to be good guys."

I know a 777 captain with 5 kids that got sick on a layover from a disease endemic to the country he was assigned to fly to, but the OJI administrator denied that his sickness had anything to do with the performance of his job and due to circumstances with his illness, he's going to be out on 50% for at least a year.

I'm trying to be nice about this an warn you guys that you need to be careful and not so "I'm going to go deadlift a 100# crate on the ramp because if I get hurt, well, I'm young and tough so it'll never happen to me, and if it did, I'm covered!" because you're not.

Do what you want man, just don't be one of the hundreds that have written me a "Dear Dough, I wish I had listened sooner" email.

I agree with you but the discussion was on throwing a couple bags, not dead lifting 100# crates of stuff.

 

[derg]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Hey, I'm just fillin' the trough with water. Some horses are thirsty, others may not be.

 

[pullup]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

. And I don't care if you paid me $300/hr, I still wouldn't clean the frickin' cabin between legs. I'm a pilot, not a janitor.

High horse much?

 

[derg]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Personal preference.

I'm not cleaning toilets at work!

 

[Alchemy]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Thread summary:

LOOK AT ME! I do so much more work than you, I am a better employee. You are lazy for not covering for other people's screw-ups. YOU SUCK! I work for less money and am a better person because of it, you greedy bastage.

 

[A320_DUDE]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Jeez folks....take a chill pill. If you don't wan't to throw bags or clean the cabin, that's your right because your NOT getting paid extra to do it nor are you really covered for it either.

Now I wanna ask a question....if its a tight turn and YOU were at risk of missing your commute home, Would you help out?

Alot of things are not part of the job but trying to at least get the customers some good customer service is ALWAYS part of the job. Example...I do two RTs a day between Woods Hole,Dowtown Boston and Logan Airport. My passengers are not always the "cleanest" folks and there is always some garabge left behind. The company does not have cleaners in Woods Hole or Boston and I am not contractually obligated to clean the bus. I do it however because it takes 5 minutes of my time and ALL my passengers deserve to get on a clean vehicle. Now if I wrench my back leaning over a seat to pick up some trash I may or may not be covered, but knowing the union and the upper mgmt I say I run a 80% chance of getting a OJI if needed.


And as far as Allegiant's pay.....considering their operation it's not that bad. It could be better but as it stands now they don't warrant AA or DLs MD pay. That's two totally different operating profiles. And considering that 95% of their skeds are turns and have you home every night it's not that bad of a deal. You guys are trying to put round pegs in square holes with this pay issue. There are different tiers of carriers out there and they are not all gonna give you a big paycheck....everything is a tradeoff.

 

[ChasenSFO]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Do you think that the 747 pilots making 300K a year back in the glory days were out throwing bags so they could block out on time? Hell no... Your just degrading the profession even more.

Did 747 pilots in the glory days have tons of check carry-on bags to be offloaded and onloaded out of the jetway on 18 minute turn-arounds? I'm sure the passangers coming in late in a mad rush to make their connection think its MUCH more professional for you to stand in the jetway waiting for the inbound crew to hand you the airplane and stare at a a lone gate agent struggling with 40 carry-ons than it is if you lend a hand and hand the carry-ons out to the pax when seconds matter in making a connection. I'd think it makes your airline look a lot better when it seems like the whole "team" cares about the pax getting on and off their flights as fast as possible, but what do I know about the passengers opinions.

I understand if you're pissed at your company you won't want to go above and beyond, thats fine. But I don't understand why people criticize those who actually like where they work and take pride in the dependability of their airline. Occasionally rampers help me hold passengers in the jetway(my job), pilots help me with carry-ons(ramps job), and I often cross seatbelts and help clean the cabin on quickturns(FAs job). My position isn't I think everyone should do it, but rather why sling mud at those who do?

 

[kellwolf]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

I can see we're gonna get no where here. We've got guys that are either too badass or too confirmed in their own ideas to listen to people that have been there and done that. Unfortunately, that seems to be the way this site has been going lately. Sad, really.

There are PLENTY of freak accident ways to hurt yourself. Just b/c you can bench press a small Volkswagon doesn't mean lifting a 70 lb bag the wrong way won't throw your back out. I've seen it. Claim I'm full of it all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's reality. I've seen a guy that could run a marathon jump out of a 737 bin and break his knee cap. All he did was land on his feet wrong. BAM. Out of work for nearly a year thanks to surgery and re-hab. The worst part is, his long term disability benefits were about to run out, so he had to come back to work before he was ready or be forced to have zero income.

But, yeah. Keep thinking this stuff doesn't really happen and we're all whiny cry babies.

 

[derg]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Wait, bro. You mean you wouldn't want to get off a six day trip and have to explain and re-explain and argue about workplace safety and precautions you need to take to protect yourself and your livelihood?

Say it ain't so, Joe!

I seriously wish I could wave a magic wand and help some realize that sometimes it's better to set preconceptions aside and at least consider the background of the messenger.

I'm not too good to clean airplanes, but I don't. I have 213+ seats and I'd be in the way. I know nothing about international inspections, have no access to gloves to combat communicable diseases in foreign countries, I know nothing of the security requirements of the country (some countries will simply clean the aircraft, others clean and perform security checks, etc), I have no idea what parts to sanitize and not to sanitize and largely, I'd be in the way. What stays and what goes in the galley? Where do the bags go? Meals? Does catering do that or do the groomers do that? Questions, questions, questions.

I do not throw bags. I can't get up into the cargo bin to start with and if I rip my uniform pants crawling on my hands and knees on a belt loader, I don't have a backup uniform and it's going to cost me another $70 to $100 to replace the pants days later. I don't know how to drive a belt loader. I have no clue how to use a palletized cargo loading system at all.

I do not clean bathrooms. I know nothing about lav trucks, safety precautions and do not have a face mask.

I don't retrieve carry-ons. I don't know what bags go to baggage claim, which bags are brought up to the gate, or anything else. Last thing I need is two weeks off without pay for bringing a checked bag to the jetway and getting fined by the TSA.

I *do* get strollers, that are properly marked, time permitting.

I don't open doors unless it's an emergency -- A good example of someone not following all precautions:

Sure it looks disarmed, but is it REALLY disarmed. The light's out, but where's that little tab on the door that confirms that the door is indeed disarmed? I'm sure it looked disarmed to the person that actuated the door handle.

I was told in indoc at both airlines that if something requires a tool, don't touch it as the FAA will fine you for playing mechanic in a part 121 operation, also that if you are injured performing tasks outside of your job scope, that it will come out of your sick bank and will not be considered an OJI. Two airlines.

I'd love to be liked by my fellow coworkers, be considered a "guy who gets the job done", yadda yadda yadda, but as much as you don't want your ramper aligning your IRU's when you're delayed is as much as they don't want some dude in a pilot uniform trying to run a belt loader and getting in the way of the operation.

 

[ChasenSFO]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Freak accidents. Yeah, they happen, I hit my head on the flaps of a 172 once during a walk around when I turned around real quick, hit it pretty hard. It hit me right in the temple so hard I blacked out for a second and fell on my ass on the ramp. But then again, I still do walk arounds everytime I fly.

I know it all boils down to are you willing to help someone else out when there is always the odd chance you can get hurt, or is that odd chance enough to make you stay back. If its not worth it to you then by all means don't get involved, but don't make it sound like everybody who's job isn't lifting things is going to seriously injure themselves lifting bags. Yes it can happen, but the majority won't. And if it wasn't clear I never hinted that anyone should have to go out of their way to lend a hand, I'm just saying if its something you can do without second guessing yourself and you can help out, then good for you if you choose to help.

 

[derg]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

To add on to my previous post, no it's not some "Ahm in ALPUH and I ain't doin' nuttin' I don't wunt cuz ahm a PAHlitt!" thing either.

After a few years in the business, you'll start hearing more and more stories of what the hell happened to blank and what the hell was he thinking when he did blank.

As a pilot, the world outside on the ramp is unlike anything we know about. All we know is that it's five minutes prior to push and there's no one on the headset so we get cranky. Meanwhile, they're short-staffed downstairs because the station manager is trying to keep costs low and half of the rampers quit to make $3/hr more a couple jetways down.

As a ramper, you want that door closed and the beacon light on, but we're still boarding passengers and we're waiting on maintenance to resolve a technical issue, or we just ran over from A-27 to B-36 on an aircraft swap when we were already late and we've got a problem with the flight plan.

As a gate agent, you're pressed with on-time performance and you just want the passengers on the aircraft and out of your hair so you can go work another flight, BUT there are seat dupes onboard, all of the overhead space is gone and the flight attendants haven't been catered yet.

I can preach on and on and on, but I think it's important that we do a lot less judging of WHY, focus on tools and issues to help us perform our jobs better and for some of the people who aren't flight crew yet, learn to listen to those who are where you want to be in the future.

You'll get a great head start here if you learn to listen.

 

[ChasenSFO]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

:tmyk:

 

[Holocene]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Excuse me young man, could you help me lift this dog food into my car? I'm having a hard time.

Sorry ma'am, I might get inured or killed.

 

[tonyw]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

I know it all boils down to are you willing to help someone else out when there is always the odd chance you can get hurt.

I think what Doug and some of the other folks are trying to tell you is that if it's not your job, you should not be doing it.

One thing I have learned in my many years of work is that when you try to do something that is not your job, you often get in the way. So I don't do it.

Once, when I was selling advertising, one of my clients wanted to get something up on the website right away. The guy who did that was a lunch. Now I had seen him do it a few times, so I figured, ah, what the hell, I'll do it.

Bad idea.

I screwed up the ad serving system so badly that it took him the rest of the afternoon to fix it. And my client who wanted his ad up right away?

It didn't go up until AFTER the ad serving system was fixed.

The lesson I learned from that episode is that I'm there to do a job, and if something isn't what I've been hired to do, I'm not doing it.

And why should anyone? After all, doctors can clean up the operating room after they are done. But they don't, because it's not their job.

So why should pilots clean the plane or load bags?

 

[ChasenSFO]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

If its not your job its not your job, and you don't have to do it. However, I will continue to ask rampers if they would like my help with carry-ons, and I will continue to ask flight attendants if they want my help cleaning cabins on quickturns. Sometimes they want a hand, sometimes they don't. I just don't agree that I'm wrong to ask, and I don't agree a pilot asking me if I need help lining bags up in the jetway is in the wrong either. To each his own.

 

[surreal1221]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

If its not your job its not your job, and you don't have to do it. However, I will continue to ask rampers if they would like my help with carry-ons, and I will continue to ask flight attendants if they want my help cleaning cabins on quickturns. Sometimes they want a hand, sometimes they don't. I just don't agree that I'm wrong to ask, and I don't agree a pilot asking me if I need help lining bags up in the jetway is in the wrong either. To each his own.

What exact do you do?

CSA? Gate Agent? I see you work for Skywest Airlines, and have 50 hours of flight time and are approaching your private checkride.

Spend a couple hours throwing your gear from plane to plane during a 14 hour duty day, and your back is going to hurt a little bit. The last thing one needs to do is jump down to the ramp and toss passengers bags into the cargo bin for the hell of it.

Yes, the larger issue is indeed, it's not my job and I'm not being compensated for it. There is no way in hell I'm going to do someone else's job, with no training, for free.

Just as I wouldn't expect someone to come and hop into the cockpit of any plane flying property or passengers for hire, with no training, and doing it for free.

Lining bags up in the jetway is one thing. Getting out on the ramp because our respective companies can't hire or maintain the proper staffing of ramp staff is a totally different equation. You toss in the risk of an OJI and no worker's compensation, and it's a clear NO GO in my eyes. I don't mind taking luggage from the jetway down to the ramp, and giving it to someone else, but I'm not going to get stuck tossing bags and injure myself to the point of being unable to perform my duties as a required flight crew member for a flight.