Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000 yr
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BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
That is certainly true, but "experience" and "skill" have very little to do with each other. I happen to know FedEx hired one of our former wunderkins who as an RJ captain managed to bust P56 twice, get hired at Jetblue, bust training there and THEN go to FedEx.
Not a whole lot safer really. That's pretty much the situation that we had when there were a bunch of Mainline furloughees sitting in our left seats. Interestingly enough the ones that had been RJ (or prop) captains long ago and then got hired at Mainline to sit in the right seat of Boeings and Airbii were pretty good. The ones that had gone right seat of an RJ (or prop) to the right seat of a Mainline plane, pretty much sucked.
That is certainly true, but "experience" and "skill" have very little to do with each other. I happen to know FedEx hired one of our former wunderkins who as an RJ captain managed to bust P56 twice, get hired at Jetblue, bust training there and THEN go to FedEx.
Not a whole lot safer really. That's pretty much the situation that we had when there were a bunch of Mainline furloughees sitting in our left seats. Interestingly enough the ones that had been RJ (or prop) captains long ago and then got hired at Mainline to sit in the right seat of Boeings and Airbii were pretty good. The ones that had gone right seat of an RJ (or prop) to the right seat of a Mainline plane, pretty much sucked.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
But they outsource! They outsource to Amflight, Airnet, Mountain Air Cargo. Hell, those ATRs should be flown by Fedex pilots! I don't care if it has a prop.
But they outsource! They outsource to Amflight, Airnet, Mountain Air Cargo. Hell, those ATRs should be flown by Fedex pilots! I don't care if it has a prop.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
Enjoying the thread. Not even batting around the idea of contributing to the substance (NOMFB). But I will say that this Cohen character must leave a slime-trail when he slithers from one place to another. Did anyone else catch the interview with this swine? There's an excellent deer-in-headlights moment if you can find it.
Enjoying the thread. Not even batting around the idea of contributing to the substance (NOMFB). But I will say that this Cohen character must leave a slime-trail when he slithers from one place to another. Did anyone else catch the interview with this swine? There's an excellent deer-in-headlights moment if you can find it.
Bumblebee
Commodore
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
My wife was wondering why I was giving him the 2 finger salute when his mug popped up on my big screen.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
Hate to have your bloodpressure rise again, but I think we need to start a website a bit like "fireglentilton.com" that we could call "RAAandrogercohenisadirtbag.com"
Reference bolded part below.... FAA minimums for a commercial certificate are 250 hours (reducible to something under 200, since I've met <200 hour FOs at Pinnacle).... but yes, they hire experienced new pilots.
I hate people that bend the truth.
Hate to have your bloodpressure rise again, but I think we need to start a website a bit like "fireglentilton.com" that we could call "RAAandrogercohenisadirtbag.com"
Reference bolded part below.... FAA minimums for a commercial certificate are 250 hours (reducible to something under 200, since I've met <200 hour FOs at Pinnacle).... but yes, they hire experienced new pilots.
I hate people that bend the truth.
Updated: 05/11/09 10:26 AM
Roger Cohen: Pilot training, qualification standards make regional airlines safe for fliers
By Roger Cohen
SPECIAL TO THE NEWS
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<!-- End /PubSys/Story/MediaBox/MediaBox.comp --><!--endclickprintexclude--><!---->Ever since the accident involving Flight 3407, operated by a Regional Airline Association member airline, there has been speculation that the training, experience and pay of regional pilots are not in line with that of pilots at major airlines and that such disparities were factors in the crash.
The cause of the accident is not yet known, and speculation before the professionals complete their investigation takes resources, expertise and energy away from determining the probable cause. But in any event these perceived differences between regional and major airlines are not accurate, so it’s important to check the facts.
Last year, some 160 million Americans flew on regional aircraft, and roughly one half of the scheduled airline flights in the United States were on regional aircraft, both jets and turboprops. Regional flights form the core at many of the country’s busiest hub airports, including 58 percent in Buffalo. At a staggering 74 percent of U. S. airports, regional airlines provide the only scheduled service.
But lost amidst the speculation of the past weeks is this important fact: There is no difference between regional and major airlines when it comes to safety of our passengers and crews, the number-one priority of all airlines.
Regional and major carriers must meet the same safety rules set by the Federal Aviation Administration for training, maintenance and flight operations. That means all airline pilots for both regional and major airlines must meet identical training and qualification standards. Every pilot receives comprehensive, FAA-approved training and testing and is evaluated in the aircraft by an FAA-authorized check pilot only upon completion of all requirements.
As for experience, new pilots typically exceed FAA minimums by hundreds, often by thousands, of hours of total flight time. Nevertheless, over many years the airline industry has demonstrated that total time is but one, and arguably arbitrary, way to measure pilot experience — and the average age and experience levels of regional airline pilots have steadily increased as the industry has matured. Just as important is the depth and quality of their training. And the quality of today’s pilot’s is far more advanced than what was considered state of the art even a decade ago.
We have also seen recent calls to ground turboprop aircraft in cold climates — a baseless assertion considering the long, proven history of safe operations over tens of millions of hours and flights of turboprop aircraft in winters all over the world. These modern planes have a strong, proven track record, and the FAA has said there is no reason to ground them. Their safety record is as good as modern jets.
One must question the motives of some so-called experts who ignore these facts:
• Bombardier Q400 aircraft have completed more than 1 million flying hours and 1.5 million accident-free flights in the nine years since they began flying. The Buffalo accident was the first fatal accident involving a Q400. This outstanding record is attributable to aircraft design and airline maintenance and operating practices.
• While there is no direct indication or official statement that indicates that ice was a factor in the recent accident, Bombardier Q series aircraft are designed to perform in winter and have been proven safe and reliable flying through many winters. Many of its more than 1.5 million flights were in weather conditions similar to those commonly found in Buffalo, without any problems. The Q400 has accumulated the majority of its experience in global regions dominated by winter weather conditions, including the Pacific Northwest, Rockies, Northeastern United States and the coldest parts of Europe.
Simply put, commercial air travel remains the safest mode of transportation available, with turboprop aircraft playing an important role. At its essence, today’s turboprop is a jet engine with a propeller attached. These modern turboprops offer environmental and noise benefits and can fly into airports jets can’t always access. Grounding turboprop aircraft would immediately cut off all air service for hundreds of communities across the country.
In Buffalo, grounding turboprop aircraft would halt 14 percent of flights in and out of the city. Restricting all regional aircraft would eliminate some 60 percent of the flights there and virtually all service across upstate New York at a time when the local economy is already reeling.
Other myths also linger, including speculation about the pay levels of regional airline pilots, who have enjoyed improving opportunities, compensation and career paths from the regionals’ steady growth over the past decade. Regional airlines have been adding new, larger aircraft and flying more, longer routes and doubling the number of airline workers since 2000, while the major airlines have shed some 180,000 jobs, and cut the salaries of workers.
However, as in many other industries, seniority rules. Whether at a major or a regional airline, any qualified pilot who has fewer hours than a more seasoned pilot will earn less. Moreover, the vast majority of regional and mainline pilots are now unionized and work under collectively bargained contracts that tend to perpetuate the traditional advantages of aircraft size and seniority. But as industry dynamics change, the gap between pilot compensation at major and regional airlines has narrowed, and many senior captains at regional airlines now earn more than $100,000 a year. In fact, many mainline pilots have switched or returned to regional airlines for any number of reasons, including lifestyle, family or just their passion for flying.
It’s only appropriate that the same set of ground rules and safety standards applies to all U. S. scheduled airlines. Regional airlines and our 60,000 airline professionals are proud of our performance serving 160 million passengers every year, and especially of our commitment to transport them safely. Whatever the cause of the accident involving Flight 3407, we will all learn from it and do all that we can to maintain the confidence of the flying public.
Roger Cohen is president of the Regional Airline Association.
skidz
Well-Known Member
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
I think it's ridiculous to blame pilots for accepting to work for peanuts just so they can fly airplanes. I say don't hate the players, hate the game - if it weren't for deregulation, there wouldn't be any cut-throat competition/ nickle and dime cheap ticket bs going around. It's the industry - much like fast food. I know it's not fair, but it's definitely not pilot's fault...blame it on our great capitalist system, and while you're at it, grab a cheap 99c burger and soda...and don't complain because those kids are just lined up in front of mcdonnalds wanting to make that burger for you practically FREE....cheers!
I think it's ridiculous to blame pilots for accepting to work for peanuts just so they can fly airplanes. I say don't hate the players, hate the game - if it weren't for deregulation, there wouldn't be any cut-throat competition/ nickle and dime cheap ticket bs going around. It's the industry - much like fast food. I know it's not fair, but it's definitely not pilot's fault...blame it on our great capitalist system, and while you're at it, grab a cheap 99c burger and soda...and don't complain because those kids are just lined up in front of mcdonnalds wanting to make that burger for you practically FREE....cheers!
Matt13C
Well-Known Member
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
Just thinking out loud but what would be the result if airlines had to start saying what airline you would be flying on? No longer could you buy a ticket on Continental and get Colgan.
That might force majors to include RJ's and smaller Turbo Probs into their fleet. Even if they had to own their own regional carrier, not sub contract the flying out, the pilots of the regional arm and the major arm would then be considered one group and would negotiate one contract.
It may not drastically increase first year FO pay, however, it would drastically increase the upside. No longer would the ceiling be a CA spot on an RJ at a regional, instead all the jets would be on one contract so pilots just keep flowing up to larger capacity jets.
Just thinking out loud but what would be the result if airlines had to start saying what airline you would be flying on? No longer could you buy a ticket on Continental and get Colgan.
That might force majors to include RJ's and smaller Turbo Probs into their fleet. Even if they had to own their own regional carrier, not sub contract the flying out, the pilots of the regional arm and the major arm would then be considered one group and would negotiate one contract.
It may not drastically increase first year FO pay, however, it would drastically increase the upside. No longer would the ceiling be a CA spot on an RJ at a regional, instead all the jets would be on one contract so pilots just keep flowing up to larger capacity jets.
WalterSobchak
Well-Known Member
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
No one forces any one to play "the game". You can choose to work for a well paying regional, a low paying one, do 135, corporate, and the list goes one and on. No one forces you to go be 500 hour puppet in the right seat and a scumbag regional. People choose to do it. Maybe acquire so experience and pick a company that fits you. Just like the crew of 3407 accepted the working conditions and pay at their POS airline. The ones I feel sorry for out of this are the 47 in back and 1 on the ground. They are the ones who payed for some one elses negligence. This isn't a Communist country(yet) so do go to Colgan, Mesa, etc it might not be worth it in the end. Have pride in yourself and what you can control......yourself.
I think it's ridiculous to blame pilots for accepting to work for peanuts just so they can fly airplanes. I say don't hate the players, hate the game - if it weren't for deregulation, there wouldn't be any cut-throat competition/ nickle and dime cheap ticket bs going around. It's the industry - much like fast food. I know it's not fair, but it's definitely not pilot's fault...blame it on our great capitalist system, and while you're at it, grab a cheap 99c burger and soda...and don't complain because those kids are just lined up in front of mcdonnalds wanting to make that burger for you practically FREE....cheers!
No one forces any one to play "the game". You can choose to work for a well paying regional, a low paying one, do 135, corporate, and the list goes one and on. No one forces you to go be 500 hour puppet in the right seat and a scumbag regional. People choose to do it. Maybe acquire so experience and pick a company that fits you. Just like the crew of 3407 accepted the working conditions and pay at their POS airline. The ones I feel sorry for out of this are the 47 in back and 1 on the ground. They are the ones who payed for some one elses negligence. This isn't a Communist country(yet) so do go to Colgan, Mesa, etc it might not be worth it in the end. Have pride in yourself and what you can control......yourself.
Sisson2011
Well-Known Member
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
Well all in all I am glad the headline of the article talked about the fact she made $16,000 a year. It may get nothing done, but you never know. I have been wanting to see that article ran for a while now.
Well all in all I am glad the headline of the article talked about the fact she made $16,000 a year. It may get nothing done, but you never know. I have been wanting to see that article ran for a while now.
Bumblebee
Commodore
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
A lot of people don't know what they're getting into until they've been on a year. I must say that I educated myself from the outside as much as I possibly could, and was still completely naive about what the job is. I work for a great "regional". I have a lot of time and money invested in this career and want to see it through. I have been very tired, not just from sleep deprivation, but from a long workday and all of the continued challenges that present themselves, the decisions and the "negotiations" between me, ramp, cs FA's whatever we know what I'm talking about, right. Then it's up to the coast and an approach to the nuts at midnight. Completely legal workday, maybe only 6 legs and on for just 12 let's say. We are both whipped and lean on each other to double check each other. That is the regional gig. On a day like this I've likely done 6 t/o and landings, spent most of my day in the wx and probably been behind schedule because the priority on a FLOW day is the big equipment, so add quick turns on the ground and stressed out people everywhere. Now, I'm not whining, and I realize that we all have to pay our dues, but I feel like an intern in a hospital sometimes, and we know that is not good for patient’s health.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
They are already required to. Its in the little print under the flight when you book your ticket.
They are already required to. Its in the little print under the flight when you book your ticket.
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
Indeed. But Americans just want to open up two browser windows, one on SWA.com and the other on Orbitz and will choose the cheapest ticket. At least at SWA you're guaranteed an experienced crew and on Orbitz, who knows.
Indeed. But Americans just want to open up two browser windows, one on SWA.com and the other on Orbitz and will choose the cheapest ticket. At least at SWA you're guaranteed an experienced crew and on Orbitz, who knows.
Matt13C
Well-Known Member
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
Ah. Well, then maybe they should have to specify, not put it in the little print. Not say Continental only Colgan or at least have it be more prominent.
I am not against regionals at all, just trying to think of ways to get smaller planes back on Major flight lineups.
It seems to me that is the best way to improve pay and work conditions for pilots.
Ah. Well, then maybe they should have to specify, not put it in the little print. Not say Continental only Colgan or at least have it be more prominent.
I am not against regionals at all, just trying to think of ways to get smaller planes back on Major flight lineups.
It seems to me that is the best way to improve pay and work conditions for pilots.
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
Good post. The good news is the mentality of going somewhere better is out there. With the exception of the aviation college types most that I've talked to lately don't want anything to do with the regionals.
Good post. The good news is the mentality of going somewhere better is out there. With the exception of the aviation college types most that I've talked to lately don't want anything to do with the regionals.
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
And a lot of commitment from us as well.
Because whenever a regional pilot group gains enough leverage to be able to move brazenly forward, alter-ego carriers are created (and lovingly staffed by us) or threatened to be underbid by other carriers.
No one's going to save us or do the hard work for us. It starts with the man in the mirror and it's going to hurt.
And a lot of commitment from us as well.
Because whenever a regional pilot group gains enough leverage to be able to move brazenly forward, alter-ego carriers are created (and lovingly staffed by us) or threatened to be underbid by other carriers.
No one's going to save us or do the hard work for us. It starts with the man in the mirror and it's going to hurt.
mjg407
Well-Known Member
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
Yep, it's prolly more expensive on Orbitz if you aren't going to a major airport. Flying out of HPN or even CIC, a lot more expensive than say JFK or SFO.
mjg407
Well-Known Member
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
So what if a pilot said, hey, I'm tired as crap, I can't go on anymore today... repercussions?
Cause in this world you will find some retard rules, not found in any common sense. You can be operating out of AK and get a three hour dispatch, but don't exceed that 8 hour flight crew day.... but then you can be in Socal, start the day at 0700 show, fly till sunset, be lucky to even hit 8 hours but you may have flow 14-17 loads, almost the entire time spent low level in turbulence, and having your senses over stimulated.
Question,
So what if a pilot said, hey, I'm tired as crap, I can't go on anymore today... repercussions?
Cause in this world you will find some retard rules, not found in any common sense. You can be operating out of AK and get a three hour dispatch, but don't exceed that 8 hour flight crew day.... but then you can be in Socal, start the day at 0700 show, fly till sunset, be lucky to even hit 8 hours but you may have flow 14-17 loads, almost the entire time spent low level in turbulence, and having your senses over stimulated.
Bumblebee
Commodore
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000
I have not heard of an occasion where there were repercussions from a Chief pilot for being unfit due to fatigue. Crew Scheduling will try to intimidate people into continuing (the trip) by saying you need to talk to the MOD, but there has not been disciplinary action (to my knowledge) for refusal due to fatigue. Now you've got me curious, I am going to ask the disciplinary chair if he is aware.