Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000 yr

Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

Yeah, I don't mean to simplify it by implying that any student/private pilot could have recognized it and put in the corective action, but any airline captain should have been able to with ease. IMO.

True, but add in some fatigue and all bets are off.

Heck maybe it would have been better if he was MORE tired; then he might not have responded at all, and the pusher would have flown the aircraft out of the stall.

Like most accidents, this was probably just the right combo of everything going wrong in just the right way to allow for the crash to happen.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

First of all you can't be PIC of anything bigger than a beech 1900 without an ATP. Second of all giving more money to pilots won't make the current pilots fly better, it will only attract better people to the industry. You also might consider that every one who has ever practiced a stall knows you don't yank the yoke back to recover from the stall so this guy just responded incorrectly under pressure which could happen to even a very smart pilot who aced everything in the training environment. I think that kind of thing is much less likely to happen to a military pilot regardless of what you pay them. Too bad there aren't enough Sullys to go around. Just my $0.02.

Isn't this the point of better pay though? I have been hand flying a baron for the last 1700+ hours and the reason that I haven't left a freight company is because of the pay, like many others have stated. I would like to see an increase in SIC required time but I know that will most likely not happen. The SIC had over 2200 hours, but notice that she stated that this would be her first season of dealing with icing? Flight time does not replace time that has occurred over YEARS of flying.

The first time that I ever had to deal with icing I was single pilot IFR and I was pretty scared. The problem is that the "puppymills" (tm Boris) turn pilots out but for the most part do not train pilots in all types of conditions. They can't! When a flight school down in Florida talks about icing they have to do it theoricial because of their location on the face of the Earth. There is nothing wrong with learning to fly there just realize that some things can only be learned though experience. If someone worked really hard I bet they could get from zero to APT within 12 to 18 months. Perfect weather conditions and aircraft scheduleing, obvisously not a likely case ALL of the time. How many of those 250 hour wonders had not even a year of calendar flying under their belt?

I learned more in the first year of cargo flying than some airline pilots that I know. Why? Possibly because I was ignorant to how the weather affects my flight. I know the weather, but I know it a whole lot better now that I have this experience of working for a freight company for more than a year and dealing with all four seasons in the midwest. We are a product of our training location.

I am not defending the capt here but recovery from a tail stall is completely different than recovery from a wing stall. If you are in icing, espically down low, you have one chance and he got it wrong. Everybody is a Monday morning QB when we are trying to analize what they did wrong, it's just going to happen. All we can do is try to learn from their mistakes and try not to repeat them. I feel sorry for their families because they have to deal with the fact that every media outlet is calling them worthless pilots and people. God rest their souls and I hope that if I have an unfortunate accident and don't survive that I did everything correct.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

I like how one guy makes it a race issue.

It constantly amazes me that I can click on any news story on any site that has comments at the bottom, and probably 98% of the time there will be someone who says "it's cause he/she was black" :banghead:
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

I would like to see an ATP required for both pilots of a 121 airline.

That would put a stop to the zero to hero outfits. It would also place pressure to raise the starting pay at these regionals. I for one would not be willing to leave a 40K year job at a good freight outfit for 16K at a regional.

Why would this put pressure on airlines to raise salaries? If you take away the past hiring boom where fresh comms were scooped up, airline hiring mins were above 1000 hours as far as I know. They were still able to find pilots willing to work for these substandard wages.

If you set a minimum requirement, it may help slow down growth during the next hiring wave. But that also limits the number of pilot jobs available. However, what you'll have is a flood of applications to freight companies and other time building jobs. With an increased supply of applicants they will be able to lower wages.

Eventually all those pilots flying freight, traffic watch, survey, banners or CFI'ing will reach that 1000 mark and again they will rush to the airlines. There will be fewer airlines to scoop up the fewer number of pilots, so it will all equal out.

Today, 100 pilots for 50 airlines.

Tomorrow with 1000 min in place, 50 pilots for 25 airlines.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

ATP mins are 1500 TT, plus 1200 PIC (and various other things.) If you go right seat on a freight operation you'll need double the SIC to make up for it. If you go PIC freight you'll need 1200 for the 135 mins anyway, and then you might find you like it -- because you'd get paid more than a regional FO, why quit?
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

The problem is that the "puppymills" (tm Boris) turn pilots out but for the most part do not train pilots in all types of conditions. They can't! When a flight school down in Florida talks about icing they have to do it theoricial because of their location on the face of the Earth. There is nothing wrong with learning to fly there just realize that some things can only be learned though experience. If someone worked really hard I bet they could get from zero to APT within 12 to 18 months. Perfect weather conditions and aircraft scheduleing, obvisously not a likely case ALL of the time. How many of those 250 hour wonders had not even a year of calendar flying under their belt?

I learned more in the first year of cargo flying than some airline pilots that I know. Why? Possibly because I was ignorant to how the weather affects my flight. I know the weather, but I know it a whole lot better now that I have this experience of working for a freight company for more than a year and dealing with all four seasons in the midwest. We are a product of our training location.

Location might be a factor to some degree, but I think the reason most pilots don't experience much icing is because they're not flying aircraft certified for flight into known icing. Sure, you might pick up ice in a 172 or DA40 accidentally on an IFR flight, but most pilots of those aircraft either carefully flight plan to avoid potential icing conditions or they just don't fly at all. I would think a CFI could give 1,000 hours dual without ever experiencing icing, here in Seattle or anywhere else. Forecast icing conditions at MEA? Cancel the lesson. Even CFI's who have "paid their dues" before getting hired into a regional might not have much icing experience at all, regardless of where they're from.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

Why would this put pressure on airlines to raise salaries?

However, what you'll have is a flood of applications to freight companies and other time building jobs.

Most freight companies require 1200 and pay significantly better than most regionals first year. Would you leave a 40K job loging turbine PIC for a 22K job as SIC? I wouldn't. Many guys have gone from 135 freight to a major.

Therfore if ASA or Mesa wanted to steal a bunch of guys from 135 freight, they would need to bump up their pay considerably.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

Captain had enough qualifications to meet the mins for most if not all legacies. and people say he was inexperienced. Silly people. I stand by my theory that fatigue was a major issue. And possibly pilot skill.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

I dont think it has to do with military training. Some people freak out when something goes wrong and some are cool and collective.

In this case I think the pilots freaked out and didnt do what they were trained to do, which killed 49 people on the aircraft and 1 on the ground. There is no way to tell how someone will react to an emergancy until it actually happens.
Military flying isn't exactly the relaxed environment 121 flying is. Military training and experience absolutely makes the difference.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

Military flying isn't exactly the relaxed environment 121 flying is. Military training and experience absolutely makes the difference.


Maybe.

I flew with pilots in the military I wouldn't let drive me to the airport if I had a say in the matter.

One of them was even a pilot-mill graduate with a CFI certificate. He routinely went to pieces.. absolute pieces.. during routine training flights with simulated EPs.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

I think that idea has some merit. But keep in mind, both pilots in the colgan crash had over 2000 hours.

If that happens then everyone has to pay for their own ATP cert. That will just add more cost to the already extremely expensive cost of flight training.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

Isn't this the point of better pay though? I have been hand flying a baron for the last 1700+ hours and the reason that I haven't left a freight company is because of the pay, like many others have stated. I would like to see an increase in SIC required time but I know that will most likely not happen. The SIC had over 2200 hours, but notice that she stated that this would be her first season of dealing with icing? Flight time does not replace time that has occurred over YEARS of flying.

The first time that I ever had to deal with icing I was single pilot IFR and I was pretty scared. The problem is that the "puppymills" (tm Boris) turn pilots out but for the most part do not train pilots in all types of conditions. They can't! When a flight school down in Florida talks about icing they have to do it theoricial because of their location on the face of the Earth. There is nothing wrong with learning to fly there just realize that some things can only be learned though experience. If someone worked really hard I bet they could get from zero to APT within 12 to 18 months. Perfect weather conditions and aircraft scheduleing, obvisously not a likely case ALL of the time. How many of those 250 hour wonders had not even a year of calendar flying under their belt?

I learned more in the first year of cargo flying than some airline pilots that I know. Why? Possibly because I was ignorant to how the weather affects my flight. I know the weather, but I know it a whole lot better now that I have this experience of working for a freight company for more than a year and dealing with all four seasons in the midwest. We are a product of our training location.

I am not defending the capt here but recovery from a tail stall is completely different than recovery from a wing stall. If you are in icing, espically down low, you have one chance and he got it wrong. Everybody is a Monday morning QB when we are trying to analize what they did wrong, it's just going to happen. All we can do is try to learn from their mistakes and try not to repeat them. I feel sorry for their families because they have to deal with the fact that every media outlet is calling them worthless pilots and people. God rest their souls and I hope that if I have an unfortunate accident and don't survive that I did everything correct.
I think the training curriculum at the puppy mills is probably just as good as any FBO. But you're right there is no subsititute for real experience. A training enviroment is to the real world as mastubation is to sex.

No one here has suggested a cost effective solution to this yet. Like for example getting rid of the seniority based upgrade. The system we have now is just a recipie for mediocrity.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

ATP mins are 1500 TT, plus 1200 PIC (and various other things.) If you go right seat on a freight operation you'll need double the SIC to make up for it. If you go PIC freight you'll need 1200 for the 135 mins anyway, and then you might find you like it -- because you'd get paid more than a regional FO, why quit?

You do not need 1200 PIC for the ATP. The only PIC time you need to take the ATP checkride is 250 PIC, 100 PIC X-Country, and 25 PIC Night. Plus of course 1500 TT, 500 XC, 100 Night, and 75 Instrument.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

Maybe.

I flew with pilots in the military I wouldn't let drive me to the airport if I had a say in the matter.

One of them was even a pilot-mill graduate with a CFI certificate. He routinely went to pieces.. absolute pieces.. during routine training flights with simulated EPs.
Going from a jet to a GA airplane can actually be a difficult transition. Also some people lie about being a military pilot.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

Going from a jet to a GA airplane can actually be a difficult transition. Also some people lie about being a military pilot.

It was the other way around. He went from GA to Army Blackhawks.
I know he wasn't lying- I flew with him as part of his crew on a 'Hawk. I've also seen his CFI ticket.

I will say this- my IFR instructor used to get Air Force guys from Tucson all the time. They'd turn and burn in an F-16 and a C-172 would eat their lunch.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

There are some good points above (subject at hand, regional pilot pay) but I doubt regional pilot pay will ever go up - if anything, economic conditions, management control, and most important, the supply of pilots will drive wages further into the ground. Maybe work rules/duty times/etc can be changed for the better, but you're never going to see legislation about minimum pay.

It's all about supply and demand - as long as there are pilots lining up
to take 16K a year jobs, that's what they will pay. There will probably
never be a shortage of pilots - so many are willing to take the job, even
work for free, or gasp, even pay for it.

When my bro was working his way up, he flew traffic watch and was waiting in the office to do a flight with some other pilot employees. A pilot runs in the office saying he'll work for free with his new commercial certificate in hand - just to get experience. Too bad the other pilots/my brother didn't have the nerve to send him walking in a painful way - at least they had some private "words" with him, tried in vain to educate him (to no avail).

Gulfstream. Pilots paying umpteen thousands for that ever precious multi-time, or even doing it for free (maybe if folks didn't do that there would be little to no multi requirements to move "up").

I guess my long, irrelevant in the scheme of things, winded point is that there will always be somebody willing to do the job for less - its true with every industry, but flying is unique in that its a fun job. Pilots may have the most responsible jobs in the world that require skill, grace under pressure (thanks Rush), dedication/etc. but your job is much more fun that most. How many folks get to strap into a huge machine, fire it up, take it halfway across the country or world? Bottom line, there will never, ever be a pilot shortage.
Qualified shortage - yes. Pilot shortage - no way in heck.
Sorry for the long winded post... guess the weather's got me distracted from doing what I should be doing! Rant over.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

In this case I think the pilots freaked out and didnt do what they were trained to do, which killed 49 people on the aircraft and 1 on the ground. There is no way to tell how someone will react to an emergancy until it actually happens.
You have absolutely zero evidence to make such a statement "the pilot freaked out" . . .come on! Try to show a little restraint and judgement.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

Someone posted this on USAToday's comment section regarding the hearings. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-05-12-buffalo-crash-ntsb_N.htm

Except for a few errors, the intent is quite clear. The tone and force is appropriate as well.

"I'm a pilot for another regional carrier (not Colgan, or any company owned by Pinnacle Holdings...the company that owns Colgan). So many people don't understand the life of a regional airline pilot, I almost feel obligated to give some insight here.

To become an airline pilot it's almost impossible to gain all the licenses and experience necessary to get hired without racking up at least $50,000+ in student loans for training, including all your books, equipment, other materials, fuel, instructor fees, renter's insurance, ect. You could easily get a bachelors and masters degree at most state schools for less.

My first year in the regional airlines I made $28,000 before taxes, and that's at the top end of the scale. And I spent about $2000 of that (7% of my paycheck, about 10% after taxes) on uniforms, luggage, and other equipment just to be able to do my job. I got lucky in that when I got hired we were in the middle of a hiring boom, and I never had to sit on reserve duty (where you only make a minimum monthly guarantee pay most of the time). Had I not been hired when I was, I would have probably made $20,000 per year or less. Most of the captains I'm flying with now made less than $15,000 their first year in the industry.

The passengers obviously provide our paychecks, just like customers in any other industry. But, the flying public wants their $69 one way tickets. In my opinion, flying should never be less than at least two or three times the cost of driving the same distance. Let's say I flew you 1000 miles (a pretty common distance, even for a regional carrier). If you drove it, at $2.20 per gallon and 25 MPG in an average car/suv, it would cost you about $90 in gas, $100 for a hotel (because the average person doesn't drive 1000 miles in one day). The trip would take you about 17 hours by car averaging 60 MPH. Double all those figures for the return trip, and you would have paid close to $400 not including food or other incidentals, and taken four days of your time. But, the flying public demands that we provide travel for that same distance for about $300 or less for a round trip. And, we can get you there in about two hours (as opposed to two days...one way). You can avoid the milage and wear and tear on your car, fly your 1000 miles, for 25% less money, and 90% faster time. Then you could do your business, turn around and come back in time for dinner. Yet, the public goes into uproar if ticket prices go up.

So, "thank you", Mr. and Mrs. U.S. flying public, for demanding the lowest airfare in the world, and for my minimum wage paycheck. I would buy you a beer for your caring and compassion, but you can't buy that with food stamps. Oh, and while I have your entire family's life in my hands, flying through thunderstorms, ice, rain, and snow in some of the most congested and complicated airspace in the country on less than three hours of sleep, please feel free to keep sending up your complains about how hot or cold it is, the seats are uncomfortable, my bag won't fit in the overhead, why is the seatbelt sign still on, there isn't enough leg room, it's too bumpy, this is taking too long, blah blah blah.

It takes a special kind of person to work in this industry. These days being a pilot is viewed by the public as being not much more than a glorified bus driver. So, until ticket prices go up, wages increase, work/rest rules are improved, and the industry regains some of its exclusivity, it will never attract the caliber of individual the public expects to see at the controls. Until that happens, the flying public has made the airline industry about the almightly dollar rather than actually serving the customer. The same is true in crew training. I can can tell you from experience that safety is always our number one concern, but not far behind in the list of priorities is completing the flight on time. We fly with substandard and/or broken equipment on a daily basis because you, as the flying public, want your free meals, hotel stays, and free travel vouchers if the flight is delayed or cancelled. The maintenance guys could delay a flight by 45 minutes to change a tire, because it's so worn that one more landing would make the thing explode. And, all we get from the passengers are arms thrown up in frustration and comments about how "rediculous" this is. Yet, you still want to pay peanuts for your ticket.

So, yes pilot training in some places might be considered substandard compared to the ideal level of proficiency the public demands. The airline industry likes to boast about how well pilots are trained and how safe it is. What they really mean is that the pilots are trained well and safety is held at the highest standard given the available financial resources and associated costs. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want airfares cheaper than dirt, that lack of cash flow trickles up to all levels of the individual company, including training for pilots and maintenance personnel, as well as making the industry as a whole unattractive to the most qualified and capable people.

The pilots of Colgan 3407 might have made some bad decisions, and it cost many people their lives. I prayed for their families and hope it never happens again. But, those pilots' level of training and arguably lack of experience is a direct result of the demands of the flying public. While I go to work every day, trying to make the best decisions possible and keep my passengers as safe and comfortable as I can, I know Colgan 3407 will not be the last or the worst accident we'll have, maybe even just this year. And, what I cannot tollerate is the public's constant complaining, insistance on perfect performance and better safety, while also demanding cheaper fares. Do you go to a BMW dealership and demand quality parts, power, and German engineering for the price of a Kia? Probably not. So, which one do you want? Quality or economy?"
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

Captain had enough qualifications to meet the mins for most if not all legacies. and people say he was inexperienced. Silly people. I stand by my theory that fatigue was a major issue. And possibly pilot skill.

The captain meeting the "mins" at most (not all) legacies says it all. His experience level is where he'd be STARTING from at a legacy.
 
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