Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000 yr

Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

The most unfortunate thing about all of this talk about raising pay is, that untill the Railway Labor Act is ammended to allow pilots to go on strike, nothing will change. There is still a line of "kids" that are at flight schools, teaching people to fly, flying traffic watch, doing anything they can to stay in a cockpit (including flying for free), that have the shakes over their next SJS fix, willing to work for $16k a year, because they are still living at home, and don't have any bills to pay other than a cell phone and the BK value meal they ate for lunch.

And, furthermore, I don't think the FAA is going to step in and mandate higher times for the airlines, because it's all about the mighty dollar, not saftey, contrary to popular beliefs. If they did bring up the mins to lets say 1000 hrs, and brought pay up to $30k a year to start, passengers might have to pay huuuh!!!!!!!!!$145 to get from New York to Florida!!! Instead of $49. And we all know that thats WAY to much to pay for that. Why should it be cheaper to fly than to take a bus? Ever look at the cost to take a Greyhound from NYC to WPB? It $241, check the website and call the number, since it won't quote you the price on the internet. Cheap ticket lists the price for non-stop at $214, with a night before purchase. Plan a little more in advance, say 3 weeks (June 8th) and it drops to $79. WTF is wrong with this picture? Mabey I need to go get a CDL, and start driving a Greyhound?:crazy:
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

I'm only playing the devils advocate, but how do hero's get to 1500 hrs without killing themselves?

Supply and Demand is still a fine system. If the FAA mandates the checkrides, which these two and many others do pass, what is the problem with 250 hour wonders flying an RJ or Dash?

But...

There was something I overheard at a drunken pilot party not too long ago:
At 500 hours I scared myself.
At 1000 hours I told myself I'd never do that again.
At 1500 hours I haven't made a mistake since.

The 121 environment doesn't allow for the 500, or 1000 hour mistakes.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

bdhill1979 said:
The FAA cannot change the payscale.

But what they can do is implement some form of requirements before someone touches an airliner full of people.

I mean I am bashing my head against the 18 more hours of night time I need for Part 135 IFR mins, to be eligible to fly boxes and maybe a few passengers. While the only requirement to control an airliner full of people is 250 hour wet CMEL (or 170 something if part 141).
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There's been a lot of discussion about the hiring of low-time pilots, but the NTSB brief indicates that, at the time of the crash, the CA had 3379TT and 1030PIC, and had been with Colgan since 9/2005. Not exactly a newbie. The FO had 2244TT, with 774 hours in the Dash 8, and had been with Colgan for about a year. Maybe somewhat of a newbie, but not fresh out of an academy either. IOW, perhaps a 1500hr requirement would not have made a difference here.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

juan valdez said:
Dude, I hate to be the grammar police because I often use bad grammar on the internet...
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You mean like now? Grammar can be poor, it can be weak, but it cannot be "bad".

bdhill1979 said:
I mean I am bashing my head against the 18 more hours of night time I need for Part 135 IFR mins, to be eligible to fly boxes and maybe a few passengers. While the only requirement to control an airliner full of people is 250 hour wet CMEL (or 170 something if part 141).
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Apples and oranges. You're comparing acting as PIC under Pt 135 (IFR) to acting as SIC under Pt 121. Entirely different animals.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

What kind of experience (i.e. hours) would give any pilot the adequate amount of skill/knowledge to react appropriately in an emergency. I have about 400 hours of dual given as an instructor, with no real in-flight emergencies. Would I be ready if one would occur? Maybe, but all my experience flying doesn't go directly into preparedness for a real in-flight emergency, with all its implications (emotions, flight conditions, weather, etc.). Every time I takeoff with a student I prepare myself in case an engine failure occurs, but if it really were to fail, I wouldn't know how I'd perform; probably better than someone with low time/experience, but there's no real way to tell. I may have 1000 hours, which would seem like a lot compared to someone with 250, but what if they were all in normal cross countries/local flights, in less than moderate weather/conditions? Would we react different in an emergency?

Jtsastre
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

jtsastre said:
I may have 1000 hours, which would seem like a lot compared to someone with 250, but what if they were all in normal cross countries/local flights, in less than moderate weather/conditions? Would we react different in an emergency?
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I say yes, and the analogy I use in conversation on the subject is a new 16 year old driver. They're devoting pretty much all their attention to simply maintaining speed and staying in their lane under normal conditions. Their inexperience doesn't allow them to divide their attention efficiently when something abnormal happens, say a soda cup spills in their lap or they have a tire blowout. (This is one reason I applaud prohibiting all drivers under age 18 from using a cell phone while driving, even with a hands-free device.)

Experienced drivers, however, are able to devote more attention to what's going on around them since the tasks of maintaining speed and staying in their lane are now second-nature to them. They are able to keep an eye on the driver ahead who is swaying in the adjacent lane, and can formulate contingency plans if that driver swerves into their path.

And so it is with more experienced pilots. Much of any usual flight becomes second nature, affording the experienced pilot the opportunity to be more vigilant for and devote more attention to any abnormalities that may arise.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

aloft said:
I say yes, and the analogy I use in conversation on the subject is a new 16 year old driver. They're devoting pretty much all their attention to simply maintaining speed and staying in their lane under normal conditions. Their inexperience doesn't allow them to divide their attention efficiently when something abnormal happens, say a soda cup spills in their lap or they have a tire blowout. (This is one reason I applaud prohibiting all drivers under age 18 from using a cell phone while driving, even with a hands-free device.)

Experienced drivers, however, are able to devote more attention to what's going on around them since the tasks of maintaining speed and staying in their lane are now second-nature to them. They are able to keep an eye on the driver ahead who is swaying in the adjacent lane, and can formulate contingency plans if that driver swerves into their path.
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Except that experienced drivers may be more prone to errors due to complacency. They might assume, for example, that the driver ahead will behave the same way as the 1,000 previous drivers in the same situation. Your example confuses age with experience. The proper analysis would be to compare the safety performance of 26 year-old car drivers who have been driving for ten years to 26 year-olds learning to drive at age 26. I have no idea whose performance would be safer or insurance would be cheaper.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

I think part of the issue is that no one trains for a full stall anymore in an airline environment. For the usual approach to stall/stick shaker scenario he did the right thing. However, he was way beyond that point and activated the pusher yet tried the approach to stall recovery. Unfortunately in this case, it is a mistake that he only made once.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

Very scary.

[Side Track]

One thing I noticed from the video was that he was forcing a lot of aileron in there while the aircraft was stalled. This is a great way to lead to a cross control stall. I know he was throwing some rudder in there as well but even then I believe it was not a good decision to use so much aileron.

[/Side Track]
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

First of all you can't be PIC of anything bigger than a beech 1900 without an ATP. Second of all giving more money to pilots won't make the current pilots fly better, it will only attract better people to the industry. You also might consider that every one who has ever practiced a stall knows you don't yank the yoke back to recover from the stall so this guy just responded incorrectly under pressure which could happen to even a very smart pilot who aced everything in the training environment. I think that kind of thing is much less likely to happen to a military pilot regardless of what you pay them. Too bad there aren't enough Sullys to go around. Just my $0.02.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

Killtron2000 said:
First of all you can't be PIC of anything bigger than a beech 1900 without an ATP. Second of all giving more money to pilots won't make the current pilots fly better, it will only attract better people to the industry. You also might consider that every one who has ever practiced a stall knows you don't yank the yoke back to recover from the stall so this guy just responded incorrectly under pressure which could happen to even a very smart pilot who aced everything in the training environment. I think that kind of thing is much less likely to happen to a military pilot regardless of what you pay them. Too bad there aren't enough Sullys to go around. Just my $0.02.
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I dont think it has to do with military training. Some people freak out when something goes wrong and some are cool and collective.

In this case I think the pilots freaked out and didnt do what they were trained to do, which killed 49 people on the aircraft and 1 on the ground. There is no way to tell how someone will react to an emergancy until it actually happens.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

Center_Mid said:
There's been a lot of discussion about the hiring of low-time pilots, but the NTSB brief indicates that, at the time of the crash, the CA had 3379TT and 1030PIC, and had been with Colgan since 9/2005. Not exactly a newbie. The FO had 2244TT, with 774 hours in the Dash 8, and had been with Colgan for about a year. Maybe somewhat of a newbie, but not fresh out of an academy either. IOW, perhaps a 1500hr requirement would not have made a difference here.
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aloft said:
You mean like now? Grammar can be poor, it can be weak, but it cannot be "bad".


Apples and oranges. You're comparing acting as PIC under Pt 135 (IFR) to acting as SIC under Pt 121. Entirely different animals.
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True at the time of the crash they both had significant time, but I will assert that the quality of experience of SIC in an automated airliner is pretty low from a learning standpoint. You don't learn much when things go as planned with the AP doing the work. It is circumventing the darwinian process (sorry, can't think of a better term) that usually takes place in a Cessna or Piper, etc...

I really am not trying to monday morning QB this, but you saw the animation of the crash right? Several basic rules of airmanship went out the window. Rules that I myself have broken, forgotten, or was just never taught in the first place; fortunately I was not carrying 50 people behind me and I managed to recover those situations. I haven't killed myself or others yet and I greatly learned from those mistakes; in fact still learning from the mistakes I continue to make.

In a Cessna there is a margin for that kind of error, in an airliner there is not.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

3enginejock said:
I dont think it has to do with military training. Some people freak out when something goes wrong and some are cool and collective.

In this case I think the pilots freaked out and didnt do what they were trained to do, which killed 49 people on the aircraft and 1 on the ground. There is no way to tell how someone will react to an emergancy until it actually happens.
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It's not the military training per se, but the fact that the military would likely wash someone out very early on who would "freak out". That's the real difference. In the military, someone can't find a new instructor and keep paying money until they get through. Of course, there are always exceptions, but they are fairly rare. For this reason, airlines have some assurance that a person who had a successful military flight career is reasonably competent. Not better than a good non-military pilot, but at least you know the really bad ones probably got weeded out along the way.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

seagull said:
It's not the military training per se, but the fact that the military would likely wash someone out very early on who would "freak out". That's the real difference. In the military, someone can't find a new instructor and keep paying money until they get through. Of course, there are always exceptions, but they are fairly rare. For this reason, airlines have some assurance that a person who had a successful military flight career is reasonably competent. Not better than a good non-military pilot, but at least you know the really bad ones probably got weeded out along the way.
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Installing this ruleset into our pilot certification program would require pilots who made it through to have some pride and work for more than minimum wages. This in turn would hurt the flight school and airline business - and I believe there is just the right amount of "dark forces" available to not ever let this happen.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

ryanmickG said:
Huh?

It just allowed for a 20 hour mistake.

Or am I reading your post wrong?
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Does not allow for, as in does not tolerate. A 172 will deal with the control inputs these guys put in a lot better than a transport category aircraft.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

seagull said:
It's not the military training per se, but the fact that the military would likely wash someone out very early on who would "freak out". That's the real difference. In the military, someone can't find a new instructor and keep paying money until they get through. Of course, there are always exceptions, but they are fairly rare. For this reason, airlines have some assurance that a person who had a successful military flight career is reasonably competent. Not better than a good non-military pilot, but at least you know the really bad ones probably got weeded out along the way.
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I had close to 300 hours prior to the military and now only have about 50 in the military but one thing i have noticed in my brief military flying career is that the military focuses on EPs exponentially more than civilian flying. I think that might also be a point the previous poster was trying to make.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

future pilot said:
I know All that i am trying to say, Is that hopefully the regionals will increase their pay a little bit. (HOPEFULLY) I'm not saying that they will. More than likley they will not.
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They won't increase pay but they might start telling pilots that they must live within a certain distance from their base. It'll be the pilot's problem to figure out how to pay for it on 16K.
 
Re: Co-pilot of doomed Buffalo Flight 3407, was paid $16,000

jtrain609 said:
Does not allow for, as in does not tolerate. A 172 will deal with the control inputs these guys put in a lot better than a transport category aircraft.
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Yeah, I don't mean to simplify it by implying that any student/private pilot could have recognized it and put in the corective action, but any airline captain should have been able to with ease. IMO.
 
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