Big brother is watching you.

MikeD said:
The 4th Amendment has a clause for we in the CBP, Border Patrol, ICE, and USCG.

...

All of this is a very small part of the 4th Amendment, the tip of the iceberg, but some of the more common parts of it people encounter....both LE as well as public.
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That was the bulk of my criminal procedure class that took a whole semester wrapped into 1 post. Nice work!
 
t-cart said:
FiveO, What do you think the percentage of busts would be versus non-bust like my friends. Other words, what % actually ends in an arrest.
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t-cart, that's a good question. To be honest with you I'm not exactly sure. I would say your best bet would be to direct that to Mr. MikeD due to that being his cup of tea.

USMCmech said:
5 O, do these guys need a warrant to do this kind of search?

I would be inclined to tell them to suck wind unless they've got paperwork. LEOs CAN ask to see your pilot certificates, AC registration, ect. However I was under the impression that they still need a warrant and/or probable cause to search the inside of your airplane.

I guess I should add that if a SWAT team comes running at my airplane I'll comply with whatever they say to do, and complain latter.

However if they ask "Can we look inside your plane?", my answer is "not unless you've got a warrant." I didn't cross the border, so customs has no right to inspect anything. It's a pt 91 flight, so not even the FAA can look inside if I say no.
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MikeD saved me a whole lotta typing with his explanation.

JayAre said:
I wonder how much drugs are shipped next day air?
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I worked a huge case with the feds 2 or so months ago that involved dealers shipping everything via UPS. We are still trying to figure out how long they got away with it.
 
Thanks five-o, MikeD, I was just wondering what % of these "stops" if you will, actually end up with an arrest. I didn't know that this is what you do. You werent one of these guys were you?:D
 
t-cart said:
Thanks five-o, MikeD, I was just wondering what % of these "stops" if you will, actually end up with an arrest. I didn't know that this is what you do. You werent one of these guys were you?:D
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I wasn't one of them specifically, but that's what I do now as my primary job. I'd have to check some stats, since my particular Air Branch doesn't get as much of these as other Air Branch's do........what a particular Air Branch does or focuses on depends on their location. Miami has a large fixed-wing mission, for example, whereas Tucson is primarily helo support to the Border Patrol ground agents. But the percentage really depends on what/where, etc. In our office though, there are a number of large seizures that have been made from aircraft caught sneaking across the border, but over in these parts, its not as common anymore as it was in the '70s through the mid '90s.
 
MikeD said:
If there's reasonable certainty of a border nexus (ie- that the object/persons in question crossed the border or had contact with someone/something that crossed the border), reasonable certainty that there's been no material change since the border crossing(contact with other persons, etc), and reasonable suspicion of criminal activity; then an extended border can be established, and you can be searched anywhere, geographically speaking, as if you were at the border itself.
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So if you depart from anywhere NEAR the border, they can treat it as if you crossed the border. Is that correct?
 
USMCmech said:
So if you depart from anywhere NEAR the border, they can treat it as if you crossed the border. Is that correct?
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I was not treated as if I had crossed the boarder. I was met by LEOs with drug dogs, but they were curteous and asked permission prior to searching the airplane. I'm sure I could have refused and made a stink, but:
1. I pick my battles.
2. I live in an area where drug violence from smuggling is rampant. Almost 2000 murders in Juarez last year. Like I wrote earlier, I can hear the gun fire some nights from my front yard. People are fleeing Juarez if they can afford to. Large drug busts down here don't even make the front page.
3. One of my friends in the KC area is a member of the counter drug SWAT team. He has told me that KC is a major hub for drugs coming up from Mexico.
 
Blackhawk said:
I was not treated as if I had crossed the boarder. I was met by LEOs with drug dogs, but they were curteous and asked permission prior to searching the airplane. I'm sure I could have refused and made a stink, but:
1. I pick my battles.
2. I live in an area where drug violence from smuggling is rampant. Almost 2000 murders in Juarez last year. Like I wrote earlier, I can hear the gun fire some nights from my front yard. People are fleeing Juarez if they can afford to. Large drug busts down here don't even make the front page.
3. One of my friends in the KC area is a member of the counter drug SWAT team. He has told me that KC is a major hub for drugs coming up from Mexico.
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There you go. Hence, the way they approached you and the situation. You could've refused in that case, but the reason they bring the dog is because if the dog pings, that automatic PC for a search.
 
Yea, well, I still don't think US citizens should have to be harassed by or submit to law enforcement while doing nothing illegal and staying completely within the bounds of the United States. It's supposed to be a free country, not a police state. If I had lots of time and money, I would do what I could to waste their time for fun. CBP needs to keep their time and resources on the border.

I love this guy's YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/CheckpointUSA?blend=2&ob=1
 
Van_Hoolio said:
Yea, well, I still don't think US citizens should have to be harassed by or submit to law enforcement while doing nothing illegal and staying completely within the bounds of the United States. It's supposed to be a free country, not a police state. If I had lots of time and money, I would do what I could to waste their time for fun. CBP needs to keep their time and resources on the border.

I love this guy's YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/CheckpointUSA?blend=2&ob=1
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Gimme a break.

It is not a police state, If something looks suspicious, it is the LEOs job to check it out. Ya know, in order to keep it a free and safe country. I really don't think they get off "harassing" people.
 
Van_Hoolio said:
Yea, well, I still don't think US citizens should have to be harassed by or submit to law enforcement while doing nothing illegal and staying completely within the bounds of the United States. It's supposed to be a free country, not a police state. If I had lots of time and money, I would do what I could to waste their time for fun. CBP needs to keep their time and resources on the border.
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We are on the border....I don't run many intercepts or operations in Wyoming. :)

There's no harassment going on. We check out what's suspicious looking; if there's nothing there, I'm happy to be on my way.........less I have to deal with.
 
Law enforcement follows a plane on a domestic flight and searches it after it lands, that's harassment. Obviously they didn't have any credible information that there were drugs on board, so what's the point?
 
Van_Hoolio said:
Law enforcement follows a plane on a domestic flight and searches it after it lands, that's harassment. Obviously they didn't have any credible information that there were drugs on board, so what's the point?
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You must have missed this part of the original post:

He said that he raised a red flag by going to the border town by himself, and just staying for a short time and then coming back with a couple of passengers. The HS plane was from Houston. They followed him a long way. They told him that they really became suspicious when he circled the friends house.
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According to Webster, harassment is defined as:

....to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct

I don't remember this being described, again, in the original post.

They followed him from the border town, since they were working the border. That's what they do. There were enough indicators of a potential crime to warrant following up on, which is what they did. As soon as it was determined everything was kosher, then no problem.

Of course, if the air-to-air X-Ray machine had been working in the Citation, they probably could've cleared this up much sooner as soon as they started following the plane.......
 
FiveO said:
I worked a huge case with the feds 2 or so months ago that involved dealers shipping everything via UPS. We are still trying to figure out how long they got away with it.
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It seems to me it would be difficult to prosecute the dealer or buyer in this situation. If the shipper paid cash, wasn't seen clearly on camera, and used a false return address, it seems it would be hard to get evidence that would convince someone beyond all resonable doubt that he sent the goods. For the buyer, it seems like it would be difficult to bust them, even if they sign for it, as anyone can send you something with your name on it.
 
mojo6911 said:
It seems to me it would be difficult to prosecute the dealer or buyer in this situation. If the shipper paid cash, wasn't seen clearly on camera, and used a false return address, it seems it would be hard to get evidence that would convince someone beyond all resonable doubt that he sent the goods. For the buyer, it seems like it would be difficult to bust them, even if they sign for it, as anyone can send you something with your name on it.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26079096/
 
Surveillance of citizens on private trips and their subsequent search based entirely on where they went, how long they stayed, and/or who they associated with is just peachy with all of you? No doubt you feel similarly about "driving while black"? Paperz, please!
 
Boris Badenov said:
Surveillance of citizens on private trips and their subsequent search based entirely on where they went, how long they stayed, and/or who they associated with is just peachy with all of you? No doubt you feel similarly about "driving while black"? Paperz, please!
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Its not that; it's particular indicators that set off suspicion that had to at least be checked out, in this particular case; as soon as it was patently obvious there was nothing amiss, everyone goes on their way. No different than any other cop just checking out something that doesn't appear right. I guarantee you that if you were out for a Sunday stroll in teh middle of the AZ desert next to the US/Mexico border, you'll at least get a checked out. Why? Well, it's rather unusual. You'd attract attention. You may very well be on said Sunday stroll, but with how unusual it is....in the area it would be in, you wouldn't be initially ignored.

You did see the 4th Amendment differences that apply to the border, didn't you?

Now, if this was a "lets follow and monitor everyone in the US, and search them", then I'd be squawking from the same mountain as you. I'm as anti-big government/1984 as anyone
 
MikeD said:
If there's reasonable certainty of a border nexus (ie- that the object/persons in question crossed the border or had contact with someone/something that crossed the border), reasonable certainty that there's been no material change since the border crossing(contact with other persons, etc), and reasonable suspicion of criminal activity; then an extended border can be established, and you can be searched anywhere, geographically speaking, as if you were at the border itself.
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So reasonable certainty of a border nexus consists of a person flying to an airport near the border, picking people up, and flying back home? Suspicion? Maybe. Reasonable CERTAINTY? I don't see it.

Add to that the war on drugs is retarded and unconstitutional and I'm not a big fan of this crap. You only have to read page one of the Federal Drug Act to see that it makes no sense.
 
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