Appalled...

[JoelT]

Why don't unions start putting requirements in their contracts that any FO's hired will be required to have X qualifications?

We tried to do something very similar at XJT during the beginning of Contract 04 negotiations. I don't remember the specifics but, it was to be a flight time requirement for upgrade. The idea was that with the up-coming short upgrades the company would have to hire more experienced pilots thereby helping us make the FO pay scales higher. However, it turned out to be a PITA to negotiate.

 

[Trip7]

This is the way I see it. From a business stand point....Once the age 65 rule takes effect, the regionals are left with one of two choices to deal with the shortage. A: lower minimums to around 300 TT 25 multi or B: raise wages to attract potential pilots.

The obvious answer is A; however this does not have to be the case. I think the easiest way to stop this would be to regulate the minumums. Think of what would happen if the minimums for an FO where 1000 TT or higher.

I know what your thinking, the minimums used to be even higher than that and they still paid crap! True. But this next hiring bubble will be like no other. If airlines are running at the same capacity in the next four years, they will have no other choice but to hire like crazy. A perfect storm is upon the HR departments of many airlines.

With the minimums as low as they where in the last fews years, pilots where willing to sacrifice money to get in the right seat of a jet after 6 months or less of training and salaries stayed low. Look at what happend to CFI salaries during the regional boom. I had several offers of 40-50k a year and full benefits. This happend because all the CFI's were being plucked from the regionals and no one was taking their place because less people needed to instruct to get where they ultimately wanted to go. With minimums being higher, less folks would be willing to stick it out. Less supply equals higher salary, plain and simple.

You're exactly right. I still believe B. was going to happen anyway. Even with the minimums still I believe the airlines were still running out of applicants. I mean PCL, Mesa, Republic all started offering signing bonuses. Airlines were running out of applicants that were even qualified as low time. Age 65 saved them big time.

Why don't unions start putting requirements in their contracts that any FO's hired will be required to have X qualifications?

Wouldn't work. The company would know what you're trying to do.

I agree with Doug. We just need to hang tight and ride out the effects of age 65. The market will self-correct.

 

[Nick]

You're exactly right. I still believe B. was going to happen anyway. Even with the minimums still I believe the airlines were still running out of applicants. I mean PCL, Mesa, Republic all started offering signing bonuses. Airlines were running out of applicants that were even qualified as low time. Age 65 saved them big time.



Wouldn't work. The company would know what you're trying to do.

There is at least one small lift vendor airline that has minimums written into the contract itself.

 

[Trip7]

There is at least one small lift vendor airline that has minimums written into the contract itself.

Skywest?

 

[JoelT]

Skywest?

No contract.

 

[jtrain609]

We tried to do something very similar at XJT during the beginning of Contract 04 negotiations. I don't remember the specifics but, it was to be a flight time requirement for upgrade. The idea was that with the up-coming short upgrades the company would have to hire more experienced pilots thereby helping us make the FO pay scales higher. However, it turned out to be a PITA to negotiate.

A lot of companies have that, mostly because they don't want their airplanes destroyed by captains that don't have any idea of what they're doing. Pinnacle is a good example with all the PFTers they have over that way.

Funny how Express hired guys with 600 hours and STILL upgraded them in 1.5 years eh?

 

[jtrain609]

Skywest?

Low situational awareness?

 

[v1valarob]

Low situational awareness?

Hahahaha

:yup:

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Why don't unions start putting requirements in their contracts that any FO's hired will be required to have X qualifications?

That would require way too much bargaining capital. Not worth the effort.

 

[KLB]

Skywest?

I'll take Compass for 200 Alex.

 

[Trip7]

I'll take Compass for 200 Alex.

oh yeah forgot bout them. Slacking on my aviation knowledge. Too much partying in ATL. I think I'll keep it that way though BTW you need to get on down here!

 

[Nick]

oh yeah forgot bout them. Slacking on my aviation knowledge. Too much partying in ATL. I think I'll keep it that way though BTW you need to get on down here!

C'mon over here to Budapest. It's going on 0400 but the party was going strong when we left Simplo a few minutes ago.

* * *

I can't feel my face.

 

[JumpWake]

You know you're having a great night when...

I can't feel my face.

 

[Avalon781ML]

You know you're having a great night when...

And soon to have a really bad morning err afternoon err well whenever you come out of the coma.

 

[Trip7]

And soon to have a really bad morning err afternoon err well whenever you come out of the coma.

Depends on if the girl you took home was as pretty as you thought with your beer goggles on.

C'mon over here to Budapest. It's going on 0400 but the party was going strong when we left Simplo a few minutes ago.

* * *

I can't feel my face.

Sounds fun. I'll try it out someday. Im more into the Caribbean and South America though for overseas partying.

 

[Nick]

Depends on if the girl you took home was as pretty as you thought with your beer goggles on.



Sounds fun. I'll try it out someday. Im more into the Caribbean and South America though for overseas partying.

Oh c'mon. It's now going on 5AM and I've outlasted everyone here as they've passed out but I'm alright for another hour. You can't do that in the same longitude!

Plus I got Tatiana's e-mail.

 

[KLB]

oh yeah forgot bout them. Slacking on my aviation knowledge. Too much partying in ATL. I think I'll keep it that way though BTW you need to get on down here!

I should be down there Sunday afternoon. The only problem is that I'll be leaving out of there Sunday afternoon!

Oh c'mon. It's now going on 5AM and I've outlasted everyone here as they've passed out but I'm alright for another hour. You can't do that in the same longitude!

Plus I got Tatiana's e-mail.

I'd handle that no problem being that I usually don't get to bed until around 8 or 9 am on a daily basis!

Tatiana sounds interesting!

 

[skydog]

Skydog, your persistent anti pilot and pro management views are troubling. And you keep using the same argument, get out if you can't handle it. Pilots can't just up and walk out of a flying job because it's such a small industry and they've spend years and a lot of money on this profession. Where are people going to go? And secondly, it's very true that management has to keep the bottom line therefore a big expense such as a pilot group has to be in check but isn't it interesting how every airline can't afford to pay their pilots without bargaining? If we all went by that principle then we would all be making minimum wage. The real solution lies in less competition not with the actual pilots, WE can't do anything about it other than to hopefully not be bottom feeders. Regional pilots make NOTHING in relation to what they have to put up with and sacrifice. How far are you willing to go to make 20,40,60,70, 80K at a regional, how about not being home for 80% of the month? Give me a break the average regional pilot makes 30 to 50k, it really is appalling.

Socal
I don’t know what to say except that I feel sorry for you. As a pilot, you belong to a group of some of the most intelligent, educated, and motivated professionals out there. People exhibiting much less of those characteristics than the average pilot make career changes every day. If they can do it, why can’t you?

It is childish and foolish to sit around wringing your hands and complaining about the way things “should” be. Guess what? They’re not that way. So your choices are to accept things as they are, or work to change your circumstances. Notice that I said YOUR circumstances, not your employer’s. It’s futile to try to change things at that level. There’s too much beyond your (and their) control. The best thing you can is concentrate on your own. That’s where you have total control. I think you can do it, but if you don’t, well, there is a lot of freedom and peace of mind comes with acceptance.

 

[Ian_J]

Pilots can't just up and walk out of a flying job because it's such a small industry and they've spend years and a lot of money on this profession.

Sure they can. Plenty of us have.

 

[surreal1221]

Sure they can. Plenty of us have.

And most who do end up leaving the industry.

I think Socal may be making the point that for those who want to stay in the industry, the ability to up and leave and go to another employer just isn't that simple as "Leave."