Can I still get hired?

[killbilly]

I'm surprised to find people on hear say he can't be a pilot because he suffers from depression. Obviously he should attempt to obtain a class 1 medical and leave it up to the medical examiners to decide. But just because someone suffers from a treatable disorder doesn't mean they can't function in the professional world including pilots. I think this thread has revealed there is still a lot of ignorance and prejudice in modern society.

Tristan,

Part of the issue the FAA has with depression is that medications have different physiological effects at altitude - read up on what viagra does, for example.

There are a lot of different medications to treat depression, and no one medication behaves exactly the same way in the same patient - it takes time to get the right dosage and the right balance of chemicals working, which can take a couple months. Further, that psychopharmacological cocktail sometimes has to change over the course of treatment, too.

So. You take all of THOSE variables, with side effects that can range from mild headache to deep depression and suicidal tendencies, and then throw in the altitude variable. Yeah, some anti-depressants cause depression.

There's simply no way to test all the permutations. The FAA erred on the safe side here, and even through I had to get some clearances for past depression treatment (post divorce - and yes, I reported it) I still think it's a smart regulation.

 

[butt]

I'm rather suprised to read the idea that an interviewer's goal is to find the best pilot for the job by looking at pilot skills and attributes only. Baloney.

What else is there to judge a pilot, other than personal attributes and pilot skills?

Wheres the line drawn between relevant history and irrelevant history? Should getting suspended from elementary school for fighting be brought into the mix when determining fitness for a job? Should an applicant who has been divorced many times be discriminated against by an interview board? What about an applicant with many parking tickets? What about someone who was a bed wetter?

Do any of the above in and of themselves effect a pilot's performance? To what extent?

 

[germb747]

I'm rather suprised to read the idea that an interviewer's goal is to find the best pilot for the job by looking at pilot skills and attributes only. Baloney. The goal is to find the best PERSON to fill the pilot slot. Only part of the puzzle is if that PERSON has the attributes to fly a plane well.

One of the hundreds of questions that is going through an interviewer's mind when analyzing candidates is "What will an investigator say if I hire this PERSON and they have an accident? Is it worth defending my decision to hire someone with a history of XXX when I have ten other qualified candidates that don't carry the same baggage?"

I'm not going to make a statement on whether or not I think that the OP has a chance of being a pilot. If I were to sit on a hiring board with this person in front of me I'd want more information than what has been given here before making that particular decision. My point with making this post is to try to dispel the misconception that interviewers can't or shouldn't look at the person as a whole.

:yeahthat:

You beat me to it. Whether you're a pilot or HR sitting on the board, you're looking for the best employee for your company. How good a stick you happen to be is a very small part of the criteria, because you can train a monkey to fly an airplane and the best 'stick' on the plane is the autopilot. They're looking for well-rounded people who are stable, exhibit good judgment, have a good attitude, are good team players, are good leaders, are reliable, and have a record to back it up. Maybe it's sad that we live in a one-strike world and once you have a record it follows you for life (particularly when we're talking about youthful offenders), but yes it's the world we live in, especially in this job market. The only way to move past this is to keep you nose clean for a very long time, meaning decades, in which time you have have the opportunity to establish a clean track record and prove that the problems you had are in fact in the distant past.

There's too much at stake when you're filling seats in the cockpit.

 

[DPApilot]

What else is there to judge a pilot, other than personal attributes and pilot skills?

Wheres the line drawn between relevant history and irrelevant history? Should getting suspended from elementary school for fighting be brought into the mix when determining fitness for a job? Should an applicant who has been divorced many times be discriminated against by an interview board? What about an applicant with many parking tickets? What about someone who was a bed wetter?

Do any of the above in and of themselves effect a pilot's performance? To what extent?

yet none of these are direct threats to ones life...

I guess that's where we draw the line

 

[Douglas]

An HR person is just that, and HR person. That is the reason there are always pilots in the interview process. HR will know about the 'company' stuff and little in regards to flying. An HR person may say o.k. not a bad candidate but the 'pilot' interviewer may say no thanks. Guess what, that person won't be hired.

A lot of aviation is who you know. The variable is HR, if HR is saying okay and you know the pilots (and they like you, think you are a steady stand up guy), you will get on.
Plus there are many flying jobs that don't require background checks.
I think if the original poster wants to fly airplanes, he needs to try and get a first class medical, and be warned it could be a tougher road than most experience, but it is not impossible.

Pilots hiring pilots is a dual edged sword, for sure.

 

[Douglas]

Apples to oranges!

the difference here is, this kid has a mental illness and has threatened to kill.

What are your qualifications for Diagnosing him?

I may be wrong, but from what I have read, a Doctor has reversed the original doctors diagnosis.

If you are aware of this previous post, please refrain from inflammatory remarks.

 

[jhugz]

What are your qualifications for Diagnosing him?

I may be wrong, but from what I have read, a Doctor has reversed the original doctors diagnosis.

If you are aware of this previous post, please refrain from inflammatory remarks.

Read the very first post.

 

[DPApilot]

Read the very first post.

and as the Doc said, once you're diagnosed, it's weitten in stone...

 

[SpiceWeasel]

And there in lies the rub.....You've only been flying a few years, yet you are arguing with airline pilots who have a vast amount of experience about what will keep someone out of a cockpit. Don't you find that a bit odd? I don't know what your background is (HR it seems....) judging by your posts, but they have seen what works and what doesn't.

An HR person is just that, and HR person. That is the reason there are always pilots in the interview process. HR will know about the 'company' stuff and little in regards to flying. An HR person may say o.k. not a bad candidate but the 'pilot' interviewer may say no thanks. Guess what, that person won't be hired.

Uh no he isn't "arguing with airline pilots with a vast amount of experience about what will keep someone out of a cockpit."

We need to look at this quote again:

But I would treat opinions on here (including this one) with a grain of salt. This site is a great source of information, but there are also a few 300 hour professors whom I would treat with caution.

Reviewing the posts, the person most vehemently against hiring him hasn't seen an airline cockpit (well unless DHC8-200 FA is flight attendant, then maybe yes).

It doesn't take a neurosurgeon to figure out that someone that threatened to shoot up a school and obviously has some serious mental issues shouldn't be anywhere near a flight deck. Would you feel ok with Dough going on a flight with this guy as his captain? Or how bout you in the back of the airplane? I know I would not.

The high school excuse gets old btw. I didn't knock a girl up, do drugs, or threaten to kill kids in my class. This should be the norm.

When did you graduate?

Are you kidding me?

Google FedEx Flight 705 or even better SilkAir 185

I mean, geez, let's talk about how much experience you have with the "other" guy in the cockpit - and not some student.

I am not condoning the actions of the OP, whatever they might be. I haven't read a police report, so I have no idea what happened. We also (collectively) don't know what his current medical diagnosis is, all we have to go on are a few posts from him about what may or may not have happened.

However it behooves the OP and everyone involved to step back and look at the advice given. I see serious advice sprinkled throughout the thread.... and it didn't take looking at the About Me flight times to realize that over 75% of those people have airline experience to go by.... they've seen an interview room, and potentially been part of a board. Much like many feel about JetUers in the cockpit, I also wouldn't trust the advice of any sub-500 hour guys especially with "it doesn't take a...." as a preface to their posts. That smacks of a hazardous attitude.

Advice isn't advice, or critique, when you tell someone "you have no business" somewhere.

He may not have the capability mentally, or legally, of being a crewmember in any environment, but the question wasn't "what do you think of me" it was "do I have a shot". A simple "no" with the factual reasons why should suffice.

And I don't think not adding something inflammatory like the above is about being PC or treating someone with kid-gloves, it's more about not submitting to the same yellow-journalistic practices that we see every day in media - some are more interested in having a "suck-you-in" headline with copy that doesn't lay out facts, only shows the writers intent and view.

I think the advice is clearly there; you need to first determine whether you can get that first class medical. I don't know the ramifications of a mis-diagnosis as you claim to have had. I don't think it bodes well for getting the first class without some major work. I like the advice of checking out the TSA website about flight school admission. I'm sure you've been doing this, but keep your nose clean. No speeding tickets, no "anything" tickets, ever.... again.

I was misdiagnosed as being bipolar, and subsequently had another far more qualified shrink tell me that I only had depression.

I am pretty sure, going through the thread here, that if you were mis-diagnosed, that is one thing.... and there certainly is a paper-trail associated with that, lots of waiting for a medical from the FAA. If you were later re-diagnosed as having depression, that I believe is also potentially disqualifying. Were you prescribed medication for it? Do you still have that medication in your possession? Have you had a follow-up diagnosis that says you are no longer suffering from depression and don't need the medication.

It really is the medication that is the biggest hangup. If you are prescribed a medication (for a condition much less severe), there is a high probability that you cannot use that medication within X hours of flying. Your medical is not legal until you have equaled or exceeded this time (which is a minimum IIRC). Depression medication I don't think is ever ok to take.

As far as an interview, there is a high likelihood of it coming up. And if they get as far as having you in for the HR portion of the interview, I'm sure that the "Tell me about a time you had a disagreement with a co-worker.... or classmate" could be a major player question-wise.

Good luck.

and as the Doc said, once you're diagnosed, it's weitten in stone...

Are you hunting for wabbits?

 

[WacoFan]

Really? You are comparing a disorderly conduct conviction to all of that?

Yes, I am comparing what he did to those things. I was actually rebutting the point that had meandered into this thread earlier that "he was just a kid and we all make mistakes" which I find to be total BS. Yeah, mistakes like a traffic ticket, or maybe detention at school...but not mistakes like "I am going to kill my entire school". Seriously, even if it was a joke it at least indicates a sick sense of humor which would be enough to keep him out of a cockpit. I mean, who wants to share a trip with a guy that things reenacting Columbine is a funny joke? He pretty much got the answers he was looking for 5 pages ago but persisted with various ways he could conceal the event. I wish him the best, but this idea that "all kids make mistakes" and "gee, I was only 18" are lame and weak.

 

[Sprint100]

I am not condoning the actions of the OP, whatever they might be. I haven't read a police report, so I have no idea what happened. We also (collectively) don't know what his current medical diagnosis is, all we have to go on are a few posts from him about what may or may not have happened.

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:There is no way we can get the specifics from a post on an internet message board plus I'd be leery of what one side says is on their record(without reference to a b.c.). Get a background check, try getting your ticket, proceed with caution, and good luck. Heck my little brother wants to fly and that is all I can say to him and his record is clean(basically since he is a junior in high school).

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Yes, I am comparing what he did to those things. I was actually rebutting the point that had meandered into this thread earlier that "he was just a kid and we all make mistakes" which I find to be total BS. Yeah, mistakes like a traffic ticket, or maybe detention at school...but not mistakes like "I am going to kill my entire school". Seriously, even if it was a joke it at least indicates a sick sense of humor which would be enough to keep him out of a cockpit. I mean, who wants to share a trip with a guy that things reenacting Columbine is a funny joke? He pretty much got the answers he was looking for 5 pages ago but persisted with various ways he could conceal the event. I wish him the best, but this idea that "all kids make mistakes" and "gee, I was only 18" are lame and weak.

Are sick senses of humor enough to keep people out of cockpits? Dang I didn't know that! I don't think he found it humorous. If he got to that point and said something like that, I'm sure there were circumstances that led to it.

I am going to reference something my cousin said about his kid when I was visiting for Thanksgiving. He wants to make his son tough. I agree. If you don't make your kid tough, then they will be preyed upon in school and it leads to crap like wanting to shoot up a school.

When I was a kid, my friend told me his dad told him that if someone tried to beat him up, he wouldn't get in trouble at home for fighting back, even if he got suspended.

If you have pansy kids they end up in a corner with nowhere to turn because it gets around real quick at school who the pansies are. For your kids sake, make 'em tough.

 

[butt]

Yes, I am comparing what he did to those things. I was actually rebutting the point that had meandered into this thread earlier that "he was just a kid and we all make mistakes" which I find to be total BS. Yeah, mistakes like a traffic ticket, or maybe detention at school...but not mistakes like "I am going to kill my entire school". Seriously, even if it was a joke it at least indicates a sick sense of humor which would be enough to keep him out of a cockpit. I mean, who wants to share a trip with a guy that things reenacting Columbine is a funny joke? He pretty much got the answers he was looking for 5 pages ago but persisted with various ways he could conceal the event. I wish him the best, but this idea that "all kids make mistakes" and "gee, I was only 18" are lame and weak.

Wow. I guess that means every single stand-up comedian is not qualified to be a pilot then, right?

I'm sure you were a perfect little angel when you were young, right?

 

[derg]

If he can't qualify a medical or a get a security clearance, all of this Freudian "touchy feelie" stuff about second chances, youthful indiscretions and actions without everlasting consequences is absolutely moot.

Remember, it's not about "how we feel", it's about "what it is".

From my experience, from having spoken at length with a few different managers of pilot selection about a variety of topics, prospects are very dim at the 121 level.

 

[SteveC]

It really is the medication that is the biggest hangup.

Here is an exchange from a different thread that is pertinent to your statement:

You know, I was thinking of instead of treating all of my disorders with medication, I was thinking of treating them with therapy. Of course, I will talk to my psychiatrist about it. Just wondering, is doing therapy much better than taking medications because it'll avoid the automatic disqualification of taking medications that are disqualifying? Should I have done therapy from the start when I was diagnosed with all these disorders to avoid getting disqualified with medications?

You have the wrong impression. It is also the underlying diagnosis, not necessarily the medication that is disqualifying.

(Bold added for emphasis.)

 

[SpiceWeasel]

quote of a quote about diagnosis

Don't know why you're quoted text doesn't show up.... but let me revise and say it's probably the second biggest hangup. I will defer any further discussions on medical certificates to MFS. I know nothing. All I know is about the medications that you can and cannot take....

And Doug, I realize we can't be all touchy feely about it either, but there's no point in telling him "what the HECK were you thinking" in essense. If he can't get the job because of facts pertinent to his case, then that's that. That was the point of my mini-essay a few posts up. Just as we shouldn't be touchy-feely, we also shouldn't be critical of the OP himself. Just get him the information, re-affirm it if necessary (when he asks about other ways of "covering it up), but don't cut him down.

 

[SteveC]

How about this:

You know, I was thinking of instead of treating all of my disorders with medication, I was thinking of treating them with therapy. Of course, I will talk to my psychiatrist about it. Just wondering, is doing therapy much better than taking medications because it'll avoid the automatic disqualification of taking medications that are disqualifying? Should I have done therapy from the start when I was diagnosed with all these disorders to avoid getting disqualified with medications?

You have the wrong impression. It is also the underlying diagnosis, not necessarily the medication that is disqualifying.

 

[WacoFan]

Wow. I guess that means every single stand-up comedian is not qualified to be a pilot then, right?

I'm sure you were a perfect little angel when you were young, right?

I have never heard a stand-up comedian make a joke about shooting up a high school. Wasn't an angel, no...but I never made credible threats against others, never got arrested, etc.

 

[derg]

Don't know why you're quoted text doesn't show up.... but let me revise and say it's probably the second biggest hangup. I will defer any further discussions on medical certificates to MFS. I know nothing. All I know is about the medications that you can and cannot take....

Remember, as the good doctor said, it's medication *and* diagnosis. You can get off the medication, but there's still a diagnosis of mental issues which is disqualifying under Form 8500.

And Doug, I realize we can't be all touchy feely about it either, but there's no point in telling him "what the HECK were you thinking" in essense. If he can't get the job because of facts pertinent to his case, then that's that. That was the point of my mini-essay a few posts up. Just as we shouldn't be touchy-feely, we also shouldn't be critical of the OP himself. Just get him the information, re-affirm it if necessary (when he asks about other ways of "covering it up), but don't cut him down.

He's gotten the information.

However, I'm largely speaking to people as a whole that they need to keep their noses clean because things done in the past, with the false premise that everything disappears after you turn 18, can have a deleterious affect on you in your adulthood.

You can shine during an interview and if there's something on your MySpace or Facebook page that could potentially embarrass the company, you may not be offered employment. So I'm trying to implore everyone to be a lot more careful. And the worst part is that you'll never have a discernible answer why they didn't hire you because of liability.

Here's a good example.

"Have you ever been arrested?"

If you answer "no", well even though it's expunged from your record, it's going to show up on a thorough background check and you don't want to be that guy who is pulled out of ground school, asked to gather his books and proceed down the hallway. That happens.

If you answer "yes", which is really the appropriate answer because they asked "ever" and not necessarily if you've got any arrests on your record, they're going to ask what the circumstances were.

"An unpaid parking ticket" -- you can work your way around that if there's been some time between the arrest and your interview. An oversight, a learning experience, inattention to detail, but sir I've learned a LOT about dotting I's and crossing T's, yadda yadda yadda.

"A threat to discharge a firearm on a high school campus" -- I was misdiagnosed (bring paperwork supporting the misdiagnosis) with bipolar disorder then re-diagnosed and was under treatment for clinical depression and I made a threat, meant in jest during my clinical depression, as a prank and was subsequently arrested.

That's probably the best spin I could put on that and if he eventually received a special issuance medical certificate and could pass the background check somehow, there is far too much risk involved with the applicant in a heavily competitive environment.

If there's something in your full background check that would devastate your campaign for city council in a moderately-sized city, chances are it's not going to fly during the pilot selection process.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Remember, as the good doctor said, it's medication *and* diagnosis. You can get off the medication, but there's still a diagnosis of mental issues which is disqualifying under Form 8500.

Yeah my bad. Never been in a situation where my medical was in question for those circumstances.... so it was pure boneheadedness on my part to try to explain medical certificate restrictions.

However, I'm largely speaking to people as a whole that they need to keep their noses clean because things done in the past, with the false premise that everything disappears after you turn 18, can have a deleterious affect on you in your adulthood.

I don't know how hard it is to impress upon kids (because I don't have my own) that everything they do in their life they will be held accountable for..... or that there is a high probability of it. I agree... there are pranks, but anything that could run you afoul of the law shouldn't even be tried.

You can shine during an interview and if there's something on your MySpace or Facebook page that could potentially embarrass the company, you may not be offered employment. So I'm trying to implore everyone to be a lot more careful. And the worst part is that you'll never have a discernible answer why they didn't hire you because of liability.

Here's a good example.

"Have you ever been arrested?"

If you answer "no", well even though it's expunged from your record, it's going to show up on a thorough background check and you don't want to be that guy who is pulled out of ground school, asked to gather his books and proceed down the hallway. That happens.

:yeahthat:

I will second that. I witnessed in my class a fellow who had a PRIA issue with his old company. Our company had accepted him through the interview even though he disclosed the issue that "might" pop up on his PRIA record. They said, great, don't worry, you're "hired". Day #3 of class he is pulled out never to be seen again. The guy in question supposedly had false information put on his PRIA from a previous company, so don't ever piss anyone off at your company if you don't want your PRIA screwed (apparantly they can put any company files in the PRIA, not just pilot records).

If you answer "yes", which is really the appropriate answer because they asked "ever" and not necessarily if you've got any arrests on your record, they're going to ask what the circumstances were.

"An unpaid parking ticket" -- you can work your way around that if there's been some time between the arrest and your interview. An oversight, a learning experience, inattention to detail, but sir I've learned a LOT about dotting I's and crossing T's, yadda yadda yadda.

"A threat to discharge a firearm on a high school campus" -- I was misdiagnosed (bring paperwork supporting the misdiagnosis) with bipolar disorder then re-diagnosed and was under treatment for clinical depression and I made a threat, meant in jest during my clinical depression, as a prank and was subsequently arrested.

That's probably the best spin I could put on that and if he eventually received a special issuance medical certificate and could pass the background check somehow, there is far too much risk involved with the applicant in a heavily competitive environment.

What is his hireability in other fields? I mean, if he's a risk to the cockpit, why wouldn't he be a risk to an office:

[yt]xTqz6a-PA5U[/yt]

hmmm I can't understand why I can't add YT stuff.