Zero to Hero Concept

[anthenry]

Let me preface by saying I don't want to sound like a jerk or offend anyone in this post, and I hope that I don't.

I understand pilots in the airline industry complaining about low time pilots. I have done it myself. I feel I undertand why and what I am complaining about. I am a huge advocate of increasing minimums and hiring qualifications. These regulations are a huge benefit to the industry.

What I don't like is low time pilots and pilots who have never experienced the line or a transport catagory aircraft passing judgement and telling others what is acceptable to be in a transport catagory aircraft. They don't have the experience or understanding to make this call. I read posts from these ineperienced pilots demanding tougher regulation for an industry they have never experienced. They are judging pilots that they have never flown with. For all they know these low time pilots are better pilots, more knowledgable, and have better adm.

I guess what I am saying is make decisions and comments based of experience and understanding. I feel I can call for tougher regulation because I have seen low time pilots make bad decisions and create an unsafe work environment. This is coming from first hand experience and understanding.

Anyway, that is all. Bash away.

 

[Socal321]

No pilot with 300TT should be allowed anywhere near an RJ, brasilia, or even a B1900 for that matter. All those short cutters who bypass the CFI route by either spending thousands on sim time or some special program (wont name any names) are missing out on quality experiences. 1,500 hours TT at the MINIMUM is a new rule I COMPLETELY agree with. The QUALITY of pilot will now go up. No more of these short cutters will be able to slide in anymore which is a good thing for SAFETY and APPRECIATION of the job. I enjoy instructing and I'll do another 1,000 dual given if that is what it takes to get there. Only quality (by quality i mean experienced) pilots should be in the cockpit, not short cut 13 year olds with a brand new comm/multi. 1,500TT is still low...but compared to 300??!! I mean C'mon. I've flown with international students who have only 250 TT.....250! and they're in line for type ratings in the B767, B757, B737, and A320....unbelievable! Experience needs to be earned, not bought.

ok I'm done

Unfortunately the low timer is a byproduct of the job itself. The quality of the flying profession has gone way down needing cheaper labor. The sad thing is with the surplus of qualified pilots now it will continue to stay that way.

 

[Socal321]

I wouldn't think someone with that much time would be afraid of an airplane.

It all depends on what they did with that time. A couple of hundred hours of vfr pattern flying would do you no good for an IFR op especially in hard IFR areas of the country like the NW.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I've never flown a transport category aircraft. But I've flown with plenty of low time pilots. Some were better than others for sure (the better ones were typically the ones that asked a lot of questions rather than voiced a lot of opinions). What they all had in common was lack of the experience necessary to make good decisions every time. Not their fault...this isn't an assault on the moral character of low time guys. I was one too, and I'm only slightly evil. I think what's being pointed out if you'd stop and listen is that anyone can be taught to operate a transportation appliance 99% of the time. Bit when things go pear shaped you want someone who can do more than spin dials and repeat memory items. The flying part needs to be second nature so you can deal with the unexpected part. That comes only one way...experience. Imho, etc.

 

[splash]

I think what's being pointed out if you'd stop and listen is that anyone can be taught to operate a transportation appliance 99% of the time. Bit when things go pear shaped you want someone who can do more than spin dials and repeat memory items. The flying part needs to be second nature so you can deal with the unexpected part. That comes only one way...experience. Imho, etc.

Not disagreeing with you here but low timers need the pear shaped training to get that experience passed down and yes, not trained just to spin dials. Learning experiences do get passed down if it is brought to the table and someone has to be there able to pick it up after you lay it down for them. I believe this is the short cut. Example, this happen to me one time... and I learned...

Flight time is pointless if things never turned pair shaped for a pilot. However, a pilot can be trained what to do to get out of each situation.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I guess I'd say that the way things really go pear shaped isn't in a sim, its on day 357 of doing the same dumb thing and you've got a bag of cheetoes open and a couple in your mouth and you're thinking about what you're going to do to your girlfriend when you get home and oh wait crap this isn't good what the hell do I do now...you can't simulate being scared in an airplane and being the dude (or chick) who has to figure out what to do Right Now. But you can certainly learn from it. If I had my druthers, there would be a 'been sure you're about to die in an airplane' requirement to carry my loved ones around. Failing that, though, hours seem like the best barometer.

 

[kh15]

Cutting corners is NOT the way to go in aviation. Earn your time, earn your experience, find a good gig, instruct, do something. I used to be one of the guys that wanted to get in quick too...but after instructing for almost 2 years (which isn't much), I feel differently now. In the 90's, Skywest hired a pilot buddy of mine at 3,000TT/1,000MULTI, 4 year degree, military experience (European) for the Metroliner....and he had the least time in his class....don't tell me a 300/30 high school grad should be in a CRJ900...but maybe someone can prove me otherwise.

 

[ChasenSFO]

If you guys think what happened here was bad, you should look around the world. There are guys in the Philippines getting put into the right seat of Q400s, 737s, and A319/320s with 250-500TT all the time.

After much research I found out more about Philippine Airlines pilot cadet program, which a few people here know I have been fortunate enough to have a chance at getting into should I chose to pack up and move to Manila. You can come in there and go "zero to hero" in 13 months, though there is "intense" testing on the ground. The structure of the program looks a lot like that of ATPs. But at the end of the program, instead of running off with 250 hours and a CFI, you're a second officer in a 747, A330, or A340. I was told after just 12 to 24 months, second officers are usually offered the right seat in a 319/320, or given to option to sit around and wait for the right seat of an A330/340. But upgrades to F/O can come much faster than that if you "know" the right people. And if you apply with 500TT, you can go from the street to an A320 right away. Now this kind of stuff is true with most of Filipino culture, its all about making sure your family and friends get to the top of the ladder, but I'd be willing to wager there are a lot of airlines around the world with identical programs.

So far I've decided to stick it out here, try to get through college(though I'm sucking at that), instruct through college, and try not to let SJS get me into trouble(i.e. dropping out of college and leaving the country). But the point is, if I wanted, I potentially could head over there now with 80-something hours and be in the right seat of a big jet in probably well under 2 years. Honestly, that thought scares me a bit. Yet, you don't hear anyone bad-mouthing programs like this, where as F/Os at regionals here who got hired with 500TT are viewed by some as ticking time bombs just waiting to mess up and bend an airplane.

Just trying to find some consistency here to help me get an informed opinion of these programs before I do something down the road I regret.

 

[splash]

you've got a bag of cheetoes open and a couple in your mouth and you're thinking about what you're going to do to your girlfriend when you get home

Professionalism at it's finest.

.don't tell me a 300/30 high school grad should be in a CRJ900...but maybe someone can prove me otherwise.

:dunno: Unfair or can not possibly train and fly a CRJ900?

Unfair to most of us, yes!

No, I'm no fan of the 0 to hero concept or accelerated 1 year flight schools. I believe training paths should be directed differently in this field though.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

If you guys think what happened here was bad, you should look around the world. There are guys in the Philippines getting put into the right seat of Q400s, 737s, and A319/320s with 250-500TT all the time.

After much research I found out more about Philippine Airlines pilot cadet program, which a few people here know I have been fortunate enough to have a chance at getting into should I chose to pack up and move to Manila. You can come in there and go "zero to hero" in 13 months, though there is "intense" testing on the ground. The structure of the program looks a lot like that of ATPs. But at the end of the program, instead of running off with 250 hours and a CFI, you're a second officer in a 747, A330, or A340. I was told after just 12 to 24 months, second officers are usually offered the right seat in a 319/320, or given to option to sit around and wait for the right seat of an A330/340. But upgrades to F/O can come much faster than that if you "know" the right people. And if you apply with 500TT, you can go from the street to an A320 right away. Now this kind of stuff is true with most of Filipino culture, its all about making sure your family and friends get to the top of the ladder, but I'd be willing to wager there are a lot of airlines around the world with identical programs.

So far I've decided to stick it out here, try to get through college(though I'm sucking at that), instruct through college, and try not to let SJS get me into trouble(i.e. dropping out of college and leaving the country). But the point is, if I wanted, I potentially could head over there now with 80-something hours and be in the right seat of a big jet in probably well under 2 years. Honestly, that thought scares me a bit. Yet, you don't hear anyone bad-mouthing programs like this, where as F/Os at regionals here who got hired with 500TT are viewed by some as ticking time bombs just waiting to mess up and bend an airplane.

Just trying to find some consistency here to help me get an informed opinion of these programs before I do something down the road I regret.

With the exception of the military it still isn't a good idea. There also was an article published in AOPA or Flying mag a year or so ago about foreign airlines and low time pilots. The article was from an senior US 737 captain that took a job overseas flying with the "cadets". He basically indicated that as long as everything was normal and by the book they were ok. When the crap hit the fan or off a profile they were useless.

I'll have to see if I can find a link to the article an publish it.

 

[ChasenSFO]

With the exception of the military it still isn't a good idea. There also was an article published in AOPA or Flying mag a year or so ago about foreign airlines and low time pilots. The article was from an senior US 737 captain that took a job overseas flying with the "cadets". He basically indicated that as long as everything was normal and by the book they were ok. When the crap hit the fan or off a profile they were useless.

I'll have to see if I can find a link to the article an publish it.

I think I read that one. Where an ex-pat pilot was in a 737NG and they were flying thru a storm and the chinese cadet F/O was freaking out and locking up refusing to touch the plane?

 

[Alinator]

I think I read that one. Where an ex-pat pilot was in a 737NG and they were flying thru a storm and the chinese cadet F/O was freaking out and locking up refusing to touch the plane?

Therein lies a supreme flaw with marginally experienced aviators piloting skybuses full of blissfully ignorant people around. It is when the excrement hits the turbofan that the difference between monkeys and men are revealed.

I fully believe a mentally retarded monkey who smokes crack on the weekends and then goes home and beats his wife because of his crack addiction can be trained to fly my plane on a good day. Throw in a few situations that require thinking outside of the box/checklist and it cannot.

The key factor in evolution from monkeys to men is experience. Experience inevitably comes with.........wait for it.......here it comes...............

Time!

/end rant

 

[splash]

The difference between monkeys and men is ....is .....REASON!

What is the reason that a 1200 single engine pilot is more trainable to fly a CRJ900 than say a 300 hour pilot? Is the 172 check list even a hair compatible to the CRJ900.

Anyone here that has not been a nervous wreck the first time flying through a storm?

Point here is that a pilot that has never been through a storm that has 1200 hours or 300 hours is going to react in just about the same way and that reaction depends on each person.

 

[Ian_J]

The difference between monkeys and men is ....is .....REASON!

What is the reason that a 1200 single engine pilot is more trainable to fly a CRJ900 than say a 300 hour pilot? Is the 172 check list even a hair compatible to the CRJ900.

Anyone here that has not been a nervous wreck the first time flying through a storm?

Point here is that a pilot that has never been through a storm that has 1200 hours or 300 hours is going to react in just about the same way and that reaction depends on each person.

I had no idea you trained professional pilots... thanks for the insight. When you've trained CRJ pilots what were some of the things you noticed that were different between 300 and 1200 hour pilots?

 

[jynxyjoe]

The difference between monkeys and men is ....is .....REASON!

What is the reason that a 1200 single engine pilot is more trainable to fly a CRJ900 than say a 300 hour pilot? Is the 172 check list even a hair compatible to the CRJ900.

Anyone here that has not been a nervous wreck the first time flying through a storm?

Point here is that a pilot that has never been through a storm that has 1200 hours or 300 hours is going to react in just about the same way and that reaction depends on each person.

*sigh*

What a joke.

 

[anthenry]

With the exception of the military it still isn't a good idea. There also was an article published in AOPA or Flying mag a year or so ago about foreign airlines and low time pilots. The article was from an senior US 737 captain that took a job overseas flying with the "cadets". He basically indicated that as long as everything was normal and by the book they were ok. When the crap hit the fan or off a profile they were useless.

I'll have to see if I can find a link to the article an publish it.

I don't know that I agree with this either. Look at the military track record for just this past few weeks. How many accidents have there been? I have met some retarded military pilots. I have trained a few for single engine commercial, and my brother flys Osprey's, but I think he's a complete moron. I'm not sure the military is an exception. I wonder if they should be required more training as well. Again, this comes from experience dealing with military pilots, not having been, so my insight is limited and maybe a military pilot could give better insight.

 

[A-300F4-622R]

I've never flown a transport category aircraft. But I've flown with plenty of low time pilots. Some were better than others for sure (the better ones were typically the ones that asked a lot of questions rather than voiced a lot of opinions). What they all had in common was lack of the experience necessary to make good decisions every time. Not their fault...this isn't an assault on the moral character of low time guys. I was one too, and I'm only slightly evil. I think what's being pointed out if you'd stop and listen is that anyone can be taught to operate a transportation appliance 99% of the time. Bit when things go pear shaped you want someone who can do more than spin dials and repeat memory items. The flying part needs to be second nature so you can deal with the unexpected part. That comes only one way...experience. Imho, etc.

YEP!

 

[BobDDuck]

Flight time is pointless if things never turned pair shaped for a pilot. However, a pilot can be trained what to do to get out of each situation.

No, they can't... and that is the whole point. You simply can not simulate every single situation that somebody can get themselves into. The hope is that as you gain experience (flying around little things) you build a working knowledge of how to respond to all possible situation because you've moved beyond rote learning. If you run through a list of 150 potential issues in a sim, a pilot may be able to deal with those 150 issues but have no idea how to deal with issue 151. However, a guy flying around for a few years in a real plane might only see 50 issues but will build good flight discipline so when issue 151 rears it's head they can competently deal with it.

 

[A-300F4-622R]

Not disagreeing with you here but low timers need the pear shaped training to get that experience passed down and yes, not trained just to spin dials. Learning experiences do get passed down if it is brought to the table and someone has to be there able to pick it up after you lay it down for them. I believe this is the short cut. Example, this happen to me one time... and I learned...

Flight time is pointless if things never turned pair shaped for a pilot. However, a pilot can be trained what to do to get out of each situation.

I think that's the crux of the problem with today's generation of regional pilots and regional pilot wannabe's. Today's regional wannabe's just want to get into an RJ the fastest way possible and don't care about actually learning to fly an airplane. All they can do is fly some glass equipped plane GPS fix to GPS fix. They are trained at the bare minimum, not to FLY to but to pass a checkride. They figure that they will learn all the details once that get on with their regional airline. They haven't made any true command decisions and when they upgrade to Captain, they still won't have any real command decision making experience. They just want to be an airline pilot without doing the work necessary to make themselves and effective crewmember when doo-doo hits the fan.

Now I've painted with a broad brush, and I'm certain that there are many exceptions to what I just typed, but IMHO, this is the generally accepted opinion of experienced airline pilots, like myself, of today's generation of regional pilots and regional wannabes. So, if you don't want to be guilty by association, please go out and first learn to FLY and then get some experience making decisions as PIC in challenging conditions, all without the aviation university degreed pompous attitude. When you do that, I'm certain that my colleagues and myself will welcome you to our flight decks with open arms.

 

[A-300F4-622R]

No, they can't... and that is the whole point. You simply can not simulate every single situation that somebody can get themselves into. The hope is that as you gain experience (flying around little things) you build a working knowledge of how to respond to all possible situation because you've moved beyond rote learning. If you run through a list of 150 potential issues in a sim, a pilot may be able to deal with those 150 issues but have no idea how to deal with issue 151. However, a guy flying around for a few years in a real plane might only see 50 issues but will build good flight discipline so when issue 151 rears it's head they can competently deal with it.

YEP!