gotWXdagain
Polished Member
True, storms and proximity to the runway are an issue.
Xjet Denver incident
- Thread starter triple7
- Start date
True, storms and proximity to the runway are an issue.
WestIndian425
Well-Known Member
Cosign. I landed around that time as well, and it was bad enough that the icing was the worst I've ever encountered.
ERfly
Well-Known Member
I agree. I've never had that much ice build up and stay there on the airplane in over 7 years of me flying it.
Boris Badenov
This is no laughing matter.
Look, noobs. Someone who gets an hourly rate is going to have to burn for this. Would you prefer that it be the pilots?
*one would hope ludicrously apparent sarcasm*
gne in prog
Well-Known Member
I landed in the time frame over at KAPA, it was the worst icing I've seen in years. Usually we might get a little trace around 8" wide at the very tip of the nose, that day I looked more like this-
Going back several feet off the nose, some surfaces had 3.5" built up. Those guys did great job, it sucked enough dealing with the just dealing with the weather.
scooter2525
Very well Member
You weren't kidding around. I had a bit more ice then usual coming out the night before but man...
Looks like this was the same system that took out Dallas.
Austin Byrd
Member
He used the magic word, emergency. Actually, I thought what he said was exceedingly clear, emergency, smoke, roll trucks. The controller didn't mis-hear his words, he just didn't think it was real. I don't care if he said something as non-standard as "Fifty-nine twelve is on fire, we're landing, roll trucks," the controller can interpret and declare the emergency, and should default to "this is real" not "this is BS."
If the engine is the problem, then pilots and passengers might have been exposed to oil FUMES, or a HAZE/MIST, which occurs frequently when an engine leaks oil in the compressor stage forward of the bleed air inlets. If you've smelled dirty socks, wet dog, or garbage, with the bleed air on, that's what's happening.
Bleed air is typically 600 degrees or hotter. Common jet engine oils contain trycresyl phosphate (TCP), which is a neurotoxin. The flight crew can be intoxicated by the fumes, and their cognitive function, and motor coordination seriously degraded. That could have influenced the pilots' non-standard communications in this instance, together with the low viz, situational stress, etc.
My concern is that the airline will not tell the crew or passengers what they've been breathing. The crew and passengers should be tested for TCP exposure, and the airline should be required to inform everyone of what substances they were breathing, so they can get appropriate medical attention. Doctors will misdiagnose headache, dizziness, respiratory problems, cognitive disturbance, unless they know about exposure to organophosphates. Blood tests should be done within the first 48 hours if possible. Pilots are largely unaware of toxic bleed air contamination, and can take a cavalier attitude, which is unfortunate.
The UK version of the FAA did a study. Over a 3-year period, there were 153 incidents involving "smoke" and 119 of those were from engine oil contaminating the air conditioning system. So if you're flying pressurized turbine powered aircraft, you should be trained to recognize a "fume" event and then get appropriate medical follow-up. You can print and save these forms.
The protocol for blood testing is here: http://www.baileygreer.com/library/Lockridge_TCP_blood_test___ALL_FORMS.pdf
The medical protocol for physicians to use after a fume event is here:
http://www.baileygreer.com/library/FAA_Medical_Guidance____Exposure_to_Bleed_Air.pdf
If the engine is the problem, then pilots and passengers might have been exposed to oil FUMES, or a HAZE/MIST, which occurs frequently when an engine leaks oil in the compressor stage forward of the bleed air inlets. If you've smelled dirty socks, wet dog, or garbage, with the bleed air on, that's what's happening.
Bleed air is typically 600 degrees or hotter. Common jet engine oils contain trycresyl phosphate (TCP), which is a neurotoxin. The flight crew can be intoxicated by the fumes, and their cognitive function, and motor coordination seriously degraded. That could have influenced the pilots' non-standard communications in this instance, together with the low viz, situational stress, etc.
My concern is that the airline will not tell the crew or passengers what they've been breathing. The crew and passengers should be tested for TCP exposure, and the airline should be required to inform everyone of what substances they were breathing, so they can get appropriate medical attention. Doctors will misdiagnose headache, dizziness, respiratory problems, cognitive disturbance, unless they know about exposure to organophosphates. Blood tests should be done within the first 48 hours if possible. Pilots are largely unaware of toxic bleed air contamination, and can take a cavalier attitude, which is unfortunate.
The UK version of the FAA did a study. Over a 3-year period, there were 153 incidents involving "smoke" and 119 of those were from engine oil contaminating the air conditioning system. So if you're flying pressurized turbine powered aircraft, you should be trained to recognize a "fume" event and then get appropriate medical follow-up. You can print and save these forms.
The protocol for blood testing is here: http://www.baileygreer.com/library/Lockridge_TCP_blood_test___ALL_FORMS.pdf
The medical protocol for physicians to use after a fume event is here:
http://www.baileygreer.com/library/FAA_Medical_Guidance____Exposure_to_Bleed_Air.pdf
It appears the controller only heard "12", not "5912", if you read the article. So I can see where controller confusion came from. The other comments likely came from his being pretty busy, working local with other aircraft in low WX, and not time to decipher an emergency attached to a callsign he didn't immediately recognize.
Or it could simply be their workload with dealing with this emergency in the WX, on short final. Lots of things to do, so the clipped call was all they could get out. For whatever reason, the controller only heard the part he did. That happens.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Perhaps, but why didn't the controller act anyway? He seemed to have immediately assumed it was fake instead of at least asking for clarity on the frequency. Other pilots may have heard better. Who knows.
The only thing I can think is being busy with other traffic, and not immediately recognizing the "12" as one of the ones he was working. It's possible that on a clear day, maybe with less traffic or something, he would've had more time to look into it, while not having to be mindful of alot of other traffic. Most logical thing I can think.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
I believe they mistook the "59" as being "United". Hence them saying "United 12".
They could have at least sent an airport truck out, instead it was completely dismissed. Since they couldn't see the whole airport I can't believe they would assume something was fake until they had some sort of verification. They could have had an even larger incident had they let United land right behind them as a result.
They could have at least sent an airport truck out, instead it was completely dismissed. Since they couldn't see the whole airport I can't believe they would assume something was fake until they had some sort of verification. They could have had an even larger incident had they let United land right behind them as a result.
I can see that, though, at a busy airport like that. Not a bunch of time to linger on things when there's alot of other traffic the controller is likely working. Without another call clarifying it, which the crew likely couldn't do due to their own workload at the time on short final, it probably just became one of those things that happen in busy situations where comms drop off.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Indeed. I'm more surprised that a crew member of another aircraft didn't say something.
Unless they were busy in IMC in their own cockpit, say on the approach or so, and the transmission was so clipped (due to workload too), that its one of those "Did you hear that? Someone say emergency? Who was that?"; along with not wanting to jam up ATCs freq by talking on it when the controller may need to. Again, best I can think.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
I just can't help but think of this incident where an assumption during low vis operations was almost deadly.
True, but missed comms happen. Wish they didn't, but they do. And both IMC conditions and inflight emergencies can throw a further monkey-wrench into that mix.
From Eastern 111 in 1990, to Northwest 299/1482 in 1990, to USAir 1493 in 1991, to numerous others; they have, do, and will continue to happen; since not all circumstances can always be covered.
Wow awesome job to the crew. We landed that morning in the am and I believe rvr was around 3000. And to back up what every one else has said that was prob the second worst icing I have ever seen.. Once u got below 13000ft it was just caking on the airplane. Fun stuff
