Written Bust

pilotdriver88

Well-Known Member
Hello guys!

I recently had my first airline interview and nervous as I was, the obvious check ride bust question came up during the HR portion.

Coming from a part 141 training environment, I was told that no busts will ever show up thru PRIA or FOIA, only infractions, violations, suspensions and any medical history. Not knowing if this is was true or not, I just decided to tell them about my check ride failures and discuss the circumstances. I had one uncertainty regarding disclosing a failed FOI which I busted twice.

Do airlines want to know that I failed it twice or is it enough to tell them I failed it? I hope I didn't shoot myself in the foot by doing so and wondered if failed writtens are such a big deal? Anyone have any insight?
 
I would rather explain why I busted a checkride versus why I lied to them.

B.S.'ing something that wouldn't be a big deal if you owned up to it off the start is going to turn into a big deal because you tried to hide it. It's going to make them wonder what else you tried to hide that's trivial had you just came clean with it.

You did the right thing. No one can take your integrity away from you. I promise you're not the first person to fail and still land a job.
 
Being lied to sucks. How do you think your employer would handle being lied to?
 
and wondered if failed writtens are such a big deal? Anyone have any insight?

You're done. May as well quit now. This is a perfection business where any kind of failure just isn't tolerated for any kind of flying beyond a Cessna 172 in GA. So that's where you might want to consider staying.














:D

Just kidding. You should have nothing to worry about.
 
While we're on this subject, a friend of mine who has failed several checkrides was told by his father who happens to be an FAA check airmen that he should lie about his busts when applying to the airlines. The reason being that the FAA does not yet have the logistical capacity to keep track of everyone who has busted a ride. I have tried to persuade him to be frank about it as there is no guarantee that something WON'T appear on his record when they look. No matter what I tell him, he thinks that he can lie and get away with it. Does anyone know how I might persuade him otherwise?
 
I would rather explain why I busted a checkride versus why I lied to them.

B.S.'ing something that wouldn't be a big deal if you owned up to it off the start is going to turn into a big deal because you tried to hide it. It's going to make them wonder what else you tried to hide that's trivial had you just came clean with it.

You did the right thing. No one can take your integrity away from you. I promise you're not the first person to fail and still land a job.

Sounds similar to what we tell people on the road. :)
 
I failed my private oral as well as my initial 135 oral. I knew the 135 pink slip was on my record when I went to my 121 interview but I wasn't sure about the private one (that was way back in 2000). Anyway, I disclosed both failures and tried to emphasize what I had learned from each experience.

Obviously the honesty thing is huge for a 121 pilot position since character is supposed to be part of the criteria for ATPs (right?). But another aspect to consider is your employment history since that failure. Sounds like you built time in some commercial flying in between that failure and the interview and I think most people realize that counts for quite a bit.

Everyone has a bad day. Some of us have a bad day on test day. How you react to personal failures and the path you pave from that point is very telling about the kind of person/employee you are and can be.
 
A written failure does not constitute a check-ride failure... As others have said though, honesty is best. That is one thing I love about this industry, it demands integrity. That is a rare thing in other industries, but more abundant and required in aviation.
 
While I appreciate you wanting to be honest, I will tell you with 100% certainty that you can not and did not fail a 141 check ride, the only check rides you take in a 141 flight school are the ones that are successful, a "check ride" that results in you not getting your license becomes just another lesson, no paperwork written up no pink slip and no record of it.
No harm at all wanting to fully disclose everything, however the 100% honest truth is that you never have failed a check ride, because you have not.

Dont worry about the written.
 
While we're on this subject, a friend of mine who has failed several checkrides was told by his father who happens to be an FAA check airmen that he should lie about his busts when applying to the airlines. The reason being that the FAA does not yet have the logistical capacity to keep track of everyone who has busted a ride. I have tried to persuade him to be frank about it as there is no guarantee that something WON'T appear on his record when they look. No matter what I tell him, he thinks that he can lie and get away with it. Does anyone know how I might persuade him otherwise?
Uhm, they do - it's called IACRA. A computer makes it easy to keep track of things like who busted what.

And getting pulled out of class when his PRIA stuff comes back - for it will come back ("You. Grab your bag and your badge, and come with me.") - will likely adjust his attitude--somewhat embarrassing. And I wouldn't hire or fly with someone like that.

It may or may not have been the custom (circa 1990) that when you took the recheck, the pink slip simply disappeared. This is no longer the case.

A written isn't a check ride. Why bring it up?
That's pretty precise parsing. Is the question "have you EVER failed a training event?" And there might be a record of it somewhere. In fact, I'm pretty sure there is (although I don't recall if a retrain is necessary after busting FOI/CFI-A, and I suspect you'd have to have some sort of endorsement - "Hey, what is this?").

Our AQP initial written test for the aircraft's systems are PRIA events, so if you bust one, something goes in your file.

My advice is don't try to lawyer - leave it to the lawyers - and err on the side of disclosure.

A written failure does not constitute a check-ride failure... As others have said though, honesty is best. That is one thing I love about this industry, it demands integrity. That is a rare thing in other industries, but more abundant and required in aviation.
Sure.

But again, it depends on how you parse the question.

I failed my private oral as well as my initial 135 oral. I knew the 135 pink slip was on my record when I went to my 121 interview but I wasn't sure about the private one (that was way back in 2000). Anyway, I disclosed both failures and tried to emphasize what I had learned from each experience.

Obviously the honesty thing is huge for a 121 pilot position since character is supposed to be part of the criteria for ATPs (right?). But another aspect to consider is your employment history since that failure. Sounds like you built time in some commercial flying in between that failure and the interview and I think most people realize that counts for quite a bit.

Everyone has a bad day. Some of us have a bad day on test day. How you react to personal failures and the path you pave from that point is very telling about the kind of person/employee you are and can be.
Yes, see, you don't have a history of marching in and failing training events. I haven't busted a training event yet (which is credit to the training I've received, truly), but I probably will at some point in my career. I expect to learn a lot from it.

The Captain of Colgan Air 3407, on the other hand, did - in fact, he was disapproved for:
* initial instrument airplane (ATC clearance/compliance, partial panel, VOR approach, NDB approach, not all of which was disclosed to Colgan)
* initial commercial SEL (takeoffs and landings, go-arounds, performance maneuvers - not reported to Colgan)
* initial commercial MEL (entire flight unsat - not reported to Colgan)
* initial ATP-Saab 340 (single-engine approach and landing - this happened at Colgan, so presumably someone knew about it and cared)

And the Captain received additional training while employed by Colgan on:
* SF340 PC ("train to proficiency")
* Recurrent SF340 PC (RTO, circling, oral, non-precision approach)
* Upgrade SF340 PC (see above ATP disapproval)

There's not a direct correlation between your training record and the odds of you becoming a smoking crater, but after a certain point, you have to wonder - and that's why the Company wants to know.
 
Uhm, they do - it's called IACRA. A computer makes it easy to keep track of things like who busted what.

And getting pulled out of class when his PRIA stuff comes back - for it will come back ("You. Grab your bag and your badge, and come with me.") - will likely adjust his attitude--somewhat embarrassing. And I wouldn't hire or fly with someone like that.

It may or may not have been the custom (circa 1990) that when you took the recheck, the pink slip simply disappeared. This is no longer the case.

I'll be certain to mention this to him. Thanks!
 
I got busted on my 141 IFR ride, the hood was too tight, so that and the stress, I had a huge ass headache, I blew the ILS on the way back to the airport, I was too distracted but the headache. I've always been honest about it, got some understanding smiles at interviews, I guess all these guys blew a checkride at some point or another and will relate to that.
 
Do they inquire about failed 141 stage checks? I failed one 141 instrument stage check on the ground portion, imo it was a BS fail. I called the MSA minimum safe altitude and he wanted minimum sector altitude, then I didn't know the significance of the AL/SL numbers on top of a NACO IAP. That was the end of the oral portion.

That said, if asked I'd own up to it and give the "I wasn't as prepared as I should have been, and took it as a learning moment to never make that mistake again" mentality.

I don't want them to think I am excuse maker, but here I don't mind sounding like a bitter fool. :p My instructor, the instructor giving the stage check, and myself are the only ones that know what really went down.

Honestly, I think it did help me out in the end though. Given that quick stage check fail, I never let anything trick me from then on out. When it came time for my CFI ride, I was so prepared the oral portion was easier than the flight. A dose of reality probably helped me grow as a young pilot
 
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