Would you fly a Katana in 21 G31 winds

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It's only after I gained a little life experience that I learned how little I actually know.

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Tony, that may be the single wisest thing I've read on any of these forums.

To be young and immortal again.
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Here's my input in the situation.. and my voice alone.

I've got a pretty high amount of dual given...the majority of it to private students like yourself.

First off.. yes you made it, and you didn't bend a wing or a prop or something worse. Good.. that may not happen every time in a situation like that. Even though the Katana has a small wing, that doesnt mean it is easier in windy situations.. the problem is that the wing flies at very low speeds, which is what makes it so vulnerable to high winds, as well as how light the plane is. The Katana is under 2000 pounds...thus... it's basically a kite. That translates to "one sudden wind gust and we are on our backs with an accident on our records"... which translates to "you may not be able to get hired in future jjobs"...especially the instructor.

Even the CRJ...our wing begins lifting quite early... we are literally flying the wing down the runway in a crosswind from the time the airspeed comes alive to keep the plane from trying to flip itself... and thats a 53,000 pound airplane with a very tiny wing. (tiny being relative)... Of course with our speed and weight, our demonstrated crosswind component is 27 knots.... though its not exactly the easiest airplane to land in a crosswind.

My rule of thumb as an instructor in light airplaneswas when the winds began to get sustained at more than 20 knots and get gusty.. it's time to reconsider flying, especially touch and goes. I flew sometimes right up and slightly over that personal limit... but only students that I felt comfortable with, and those students that felt comfortable doing it. Everyone would stop flying above 25 knots, especially with gusts. Just not a good idea.

Not questioning the skills as a pilot, questioning the judgement of the pilot. As has been stated earlier.. there are old pilots, and there are bold pilots..but there are not old bold pilots. It's good to push yourself..but only to a certain point.

My two cents
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The thing that caught me was how do you slow down the Katana from bringing it in at 80 knots - those things just do not slow down easy like a cessna.
 
Hey everyone,

I'll have to side with Citationkid about the speeds. We fly the Ecclipse at 80 kt approach, with a 60 kt final. However, it's real easy to overspeed that plane if you're not careful, especially on approach. As long as we're on the topic of the Ecclipse, anyone have tips on keeping the CHT in the green on approach? What we've found is if, when you turn onto the 45, cut the power, put in the flaps, then descend to TPA with power on. Keeps the CHT at least in the yellow.
 
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Would you fly a Katana in 21 G31 winds [?]

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Sure thing! Hold my beer for me!

I hate to be harsh, but your post is pretty scary to me. When you actually start studying for your knowlege tests, you'll read a lot about "hazardous attitudes". The FAA likes to harp on 5 of them in particular. I think that the detail that you're supposed to know about them is a little silly, but the FAA is right in that all of them can be incredibly dangerous.

Your post makes you sound like the poster-boy for two of them. (Here's an article about hazardous attitudes...see if you can figure out which ones you're showing)

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We are the only ones flying at all except the national guard. Every one else is at home with thier airplanes in the hanger.

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I love the Katana and think it's a fun little airplane so figured I wouldn't have too much trouble with it.

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So we take off and start getting throughn around. Wasn't too bad tho, I've been in worse.

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they havn't had a single student stupid (or brave) enough to fly today.

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And by the way, this...

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P.S. I'm not bragging about flying in these conditions

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is crap. If you don't mean to brag then you should really think a little harder about what you say and how you say it...your post basically says, "Would you fly a Katana in super windy conditions? I did! Aren't I wonderful?" You're obviously expecting people to think that you're a daring and skilled pilot.

-Zach
 
First, there's a lot from your post that I can't know. I'm not familiar with the runway and I'm not really familiar with the airplane.

Second, I don't mind being a dissenting voice.
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You said your Mom flew you there right? And haven't I read where you wrote that she was a working corporate pilot? So I'm assuming when you landed she saw the wind and had no problem with you flying in it, and your instructor had no trouble flying in it and lastly (and lastly because of your experience) you had no problem flying in it, then it was quite okay for you to fly in it.

You can't fly in beautiful weather all the time. You'll be the sh*ttiest pilot in the world if you do. You need that time in "less than optimal" conditions. You need those crosswind landings. You need to know just what your limits are and you need to find that out with an instructor when possible because it's a heck of a lot worse to have to find out on your own.

I can't tell you how many times the weather has been completely wrong when I planned a flight. At least as much as its been right. Now what if you were up doing a x country and the weather suddenly went to crap? What kind of experience would you have to handle that if you'd never ever flown in marginal weather?

If you were planning on just being a fair-wx pilot who only flew on perfect Sundays in July then I'd say you could have done without it. But from what I gather you want to make money doing this.

That's fine, but if so, you damn well better know what you're doing. And you're not going to get to that point by flying in perfect wx all the time.

Now don't get me wrong. Self-confidence is a good thing. But sometimes the line between self and over gets blurred and over-confidence can be a killer, I'll be the first to admit. But I'm not going to second-guess your mom or your instructor or you...I wasn't there. But I can tell you that I wouldn't necessarily rule out flying in those conditions. You gotta learn crosswind. There's no way to do it but to fly in a crosswind.

So keep your wits about but realize that there are going to be times when you need to stay on the ground. But also realize there are times, especially when you're getting paid, that might be worse than you'd like but not bad enough to scrub. In those cases you need to be able to go and you need to receive training in those less than desirable conditions. You got some good experience. Get some more.
 
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As a rule I try to avoid winds over 30 kts period in a light aircraft.

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My rule of thumb as an instructor in light airplaneswas when the winds began to get sustained at more than 20 knots and get gusty.. it's time to reconsider flying, especially touch and goes.

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Why? Does something about the way the aircraft flies change when you go over twenty or thirty knots of wind? There is basically only two things that you have to worry in the wind, basically the crosswind component, and the gust factor. Your going to know in the flare if your going to have enough rudder and aileron to keep the thing straight, if you don’t just go around. As far the gust factor, it’s eleven knots, just add that to your approach speed and if all the sudden you lose the whole gust factor the airplane won’t fall out the sky. I wasn’t there but it sounds like you guys had the right idea, flying at 80 knots on final giving you better controllability, do your slowing down in the flare where if you lose a gust and the airplane quits flying just like you want. At a 7000 foot strip you can float half way down easily and still turn off before the end.

With my students I always tried to fly when it was windy, when it was IFR, etc…because it was good experience. Most of you seem to want to make this your career, and when it’s your job you don’t pack it in because the weather sucks. Soon enough your company will want you to take a jet into a 5000 foot strip, winds 41 gusting 50, low ceilings, etc… and you’ll be glad you know if you can do it safely, and how do it safely.

I can’t believe you guys are ragging on his instructor. Nobody except him was in a position to judge the safety of the flight. As long as there is an out, such as an airport nearby with winds down the runway, I would have no problem going up based on what CKid said so far.
 
Well, if the existing winds were over the maximum demonstrated crosswind (gust factor included) component for the katana, I wouldn't have gone. If it wasn't over the max dem. xwind comp, the TAF or Area Forecast wasn't calling for winds to increase, and I had an experienced CFI with me, then sure, why not.

However, I'm prety sure that 19 or 20 knots is over the demonstrated component for the DA20 and therefore would not have gone. By the book, I say. I cancelled a flight in a C-182RG a few weeks ago because the crosswind+gust factor was a couple of knots over the max dem. comp for the 182 (18 knots).

I agree with what tired says. You should be able to fly the airplane well, in all conditions within its limits. I for one, have no desire to explore the flight characteristics of the airplane beyond the conditions specified in the POH, and would never willingly do so unless forced to by extenuating circumstances.
 
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With my students I always tried to fly when it was windy, when it was IFR, etc…because it was good experience. Most of you seem to want to make this your career, and when it’s your job you don’t pack it in because the weather sucks. Soon enough your company will want you to take a jet into a 5000 foot strip, winds 41 gusting 50, low ceilings, etc… and you’ll be glad you know if you can do it safely, and how do it safely.

I can’t believe you guys are ragging on his instructor. Nobody except him was in a position to judge the safety of the flight. As long as there is an out, such as an airport nearby with winds down the runway, I would have no problem going up based on what CKid said so far.


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Yeah buddy.

You did your students good.
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I've known new instructors that would discourage their students from actual because they were scared of it. I always kinda thought they were in the wrong business or had no business instructing or both.

When I instructed helicopters I always bit my nails with my advanced students. CFI-Rotorcraft/Helicopter ride calls for full autos to the ground. I had one student from Austria and I swear that guy was good. I'd do them all day with him. But for most students it's a tense moment. And so if the student's tense in a risky maneuver that once initiated commits you then you better be tense too. Cause it's a one shot deal. But I did the heck out of them. You gotta. It's saved my butt on more than one occasion.


Being a good pilot is doing things right when things are going well. Being a great pilot is doing things right when things are going to sh*t.

That, my friends, is the proof of the pudding.
 
CitationKid-

I'm still thinking about your post.....Are you sure the winds were really out of 270??? Are you sure that wasn't just that TAF? I just have trouble believing that anyone would attempt touch and goes given that wind and the runway direction.

If the winds were 270 @21 G31 and RWY 33 is in use, then it IS almost a full crosswind. My trusty calculator says that in a 60 deg. crosswind about 85% of that is a x-wind component. So....That comes out to about a 27kt x-wind component when it gusts!! Call me a wimp but the sound of that makes me cringe a little.

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I didn't have to hold that much rudder in. I only used maybe half of it. The winds were from around 270 and the RWY is 33 so it wasn't direct,

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I've had the Katana in lesser x-winds and have had to hold full rudder (and yes I did approach with a higher speed). SO...I think maybe the winds had subsided a litte...Could that be?

The other problem with the Katana is as others have stated, when you approach fast it Flooooooooats. And at some point you must have slowed it down to a resonable speed (under 60 indicated). Touching down at a high speed in a Katana results in a very low pitch attitude and usually results in a 3-point laning followed by wheelbarrowing. For instance, try holding a Katana on the ground during take-off much past 60kts, the plane doesn't want to stay there, and the only way to keep it there is forward elevator thus wheelbarrowing.

AgPilot, I think you've gotten too acustomed to having 10,000lbs of aircraft around you!! This aircraft is LIGHT....Your right main wheel probably weighs more than a Katana.

Just a final thought....I know a max-demonstrated crosswind component is not a limitation however it is a good guide. I can appreciate the arguement that we should all push our limits once in a while to become better pilots, but within reason guys......I don't take up students with 300lbs of ballast in the baggage compartment to show my students what it's like flying with a excessively aft CG just to push the limits in case they have a full plane one day with an aft CG.

Most of us are probably type-A personalities, perfectionists, etc.....The hardest lesson for us to learn sometimes is that we should stay on the ground some days.
 
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AgPilot, I think you've gotten too acustomed to having 10,000lbs of aircraft around you!! This aircraft is LIGHT....Your right main wheel probably weighs more than a Katana.


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And this may be. As I noted, I am not familiar with the aircraft. Or the runway. There might well have been an alternative nearby which would allow an out.

But I still have to question whether this boy's mom would let him fly in unsafe conditions. And when I've got two commercial pilots who are there and endorsing the action then who am I to second guess their judgement?
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Never flown a Katana. I have certainly flown a 150 in those conditions many times, but never landed with a direct crosswind of that strength in one. Not sure I would want to. I have had to land a 172 with similar winds and an almost direct crosswind, but a 172 (as wimpy as it is) is much heavier than a Katana.

Dunno... Was not there and did not see the actual conditions.
 
I think that what's happening is much like what has happened before, CKid. Forums are places where people offer opinions and thoughts for others to see. Based on experience, personal preference, opinion, etc., there are some people who disagree with you on a few things and say so. You seem to get defensive pretty quickly; then again, some people seem to jump on you pretty quickly, too.

Just remember that you do often come across as overly confident and indestructable. Though you do have skilled and experienced parents and are starting out with a leg up on many of us, you lack much of the basic decision making and skill building required to be a good PIC. When people point that out, it often seems as if you think you know more than they do (and a lot of these folks have WAY more experience than either of us) and that you're convinced you were right.

This is a place to learn and listen to feedback. If you post something like the windy Katana story (which did come across as a bit of a boast, intentionally or accidentally . . . ), you must expect both positive and negative reactions. How you handle those reactions is what will determine your image in this group.

Now, here's my question:

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I didn't have to hold that much rudder in. I only used maybe half of it.

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and . . .

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I come in with full right rudder and a lot of left stick.

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Strong conflictions there! Which was it? The answer will make a big difference in my thoughts as to the safety of the day . . .
 
I've flown in some heavy winds, both at my current position, and while flying as an instructor. I have some interesting stories about wind, often in clear conditions.

Basically, wind can be as serious a weather phenomena as low ceilings and fog when it comes to flying. I'm not going to judge you or your instructor, since I don't like being "Monday Morning Quarterbacked", as I'm sure you don't either. But, I can say, when flying the Saab with winds reported 21 gusting to 30, we find that to be enough of a concern that we at 15 knots to our Vref for a Vfa (final approach) speed, just in case of gusts or shear.

One time in particular, I was the PF and landing on 31C at MDW. Winds were reported around 240 at 30G45 or something to that nature. However, asking for a wind report from tower, we got "Winds 230 at 20." Ok, not to bad eh? Well at about 30 feet above the runway, we lost 20 knots, and the plane came down hard and bounced right back up, and we did a go around. Due to the winds hitting the hangars and fence surrounding MDW, the winds dropped off greatly down low, and so did we.

The same day, we had a flow control delay while at DSM, so we did a 180 turn to hold at the pad waiting for departure. We wanted to turn into the wind, so as not to blow all our exhaust right back into the tailpipe (tailpipe hot) and into our bleed system. After completing the 180 turn, the winds pushed us backwards, and castered our nose wheel. We didn't know it at first, but a few minutes later when attempting to taxi, we started going right, with our nosewheel stuck at the 90 degree position. Not good.

Departing MDW the other night, there was shear reported on final for 13C. They were using the ILS 4R circle 13C approach, and we were departing on 13C. On initial climbout, we had an amazing amount of turbulence between 1000 feet and 2500 feet. This was due to the great shear between the winds on the ground (slowed by friction off the buildings, and disturbed by them as well) and the high winds 50 knots plus at 3000 feet. Our ground track heading 270 was pushing us towards Wisconsin. Winds on the ground were reported 15G20.

I have plenty more stories about the effects of winds that don't seem too strong (in the 15G25 knot range), and even more about winds that ARE strong (in the 30G50 knot range).

You have to understand that winds have a serious effect on flight, as does ice, snow, rain, fog, or any other of the more obvious weather phenomena. We often don't consider wind to be something to be a determining factor in cancelling a flight, particularly when the weather is clear. Now at the airlines, we won't cancel for wind, unless it's like a hurricane! I've landed in winds reported gusting to 48 knots. But, for those flying smaller aircraft, winds up to 30 knots can be detrimental to the operation.

Consider the aircraft you are flying, it's limitations, and your location. Do you think it's safe to fly? Don't worry... the more conservative approach in making the go/no-go decision in winds isn't the easy way out. It's the hard way to go. Because then you will be judged, but you need to have enough confidence in yourself to say "I'm not flying in that weather."
 
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Just remember that you do often come across as overly confident and indestructable

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Find me one teenager that isn't..........
 
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Just remember that you do often come across as overly confident and indestructable

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Find me one teenager that isn't..........

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I knew two thought that way: Kurt Palmreuter and Brian Bellows, sadly both will remain teenagers forever: dead at the promising age of 18.
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Some mistakes you never stop paying for. Not trying to get all preachy, just some food for thought.
 
That isn't an excuse. As a teenager, I recognized how others acted at times, and used that to my advantage. Recognize that "invincible" attitude that others have, and take the higher road. You have an excellent opportunity to grow more than your peers due to the responsibilities you are provided by flying. You will come out on top later if you take the more mature attitude about this, instead of saying "well everyone my age goes around without worry of consequences."
 
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Just remember that you do often come across as overly confident and indestructable

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Find me one teenager that isn't..........

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Astute observation.
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Don't forget, though, that an overly confident and indestructible attitude can get a person dead. (Just an observation on teens in general, don't take it too personally!)
 
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