why do you keep slowing down

ZapBrannigan said:
He ain't the only one! When I see the TCAS target moving back towards us I get a little antsy too! Especially as I try to figure out how the heck to get this crazy thing slowed down, configured by 1000 feet on a 3 degree glideslope.
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Do you fly an Airbus or a B757?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
This is why airlines and the FAA should make an effort to have ATC people come in for CRM to talk about this stuff. It's hard telling how much stuff there is that each of us thinks the other party knows.
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Part of our first flight testing has us doing some interesting things that I'm sure can upset controllers in SEA. For the most part, they're used to our requests, but still probably don't completely understand why.

Recently, we've started working on have local controllers come and fly with us during some of our testing. Trying to build a good relationship with them and actually show them exactly why we need block altitudes and changes in speed.

So far, it's been a huge success. All the controllers that have tagged along have enjoyed the show and walked away with a better understanding of our needs.
 
Derg said:
But in the meantime, I wonder if more canned speeds may be the answer so at least we're all on the same sheet of music.
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Right along with the metric system, an ass crazy number of transitions with unpronounceable names, that damn little black box on the arrival that they love to hide.
I'm "fully" ready but the controller said, "I call you back."
 
Cptnchia said:
Right along with the metric system, an ass crazy number of transitions with unpronounceable names, that damn little black box on the arrival that they love to hide.
I'm "fully" ready but the controller said, "I call you back."
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What "stand" are you fooly ready for poooshback and engine staht from?
 
Seggy said:
There is a very easy solution.

A Next Generation ATC System. Doubtful we will get there though without user fees for General Aviation.
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What is that going to change though? Me in my piston single - I am going to speed up 40 kts for the descent rate approach wants typically. Conveniently, they usually want best forward speed from me anyway. But I don't expect controllers to know what every airframe they handle can and can't do.

Nextgen won't change change how airplanes fly, and ATC already has groundspeed from radar. Nextgen would give more frequent updates of speed, but I don't see how it would help maintaining separation with configuration changes that alter airspeed.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
What is that going to change though?
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A lot.

Me in my piston single - I am going to speed up 40 kts for the descent rate approach wants typically. Conveniently, they usually want best forward speed from me anyway. But I don't expect controllers to know what every airframe they handle can and can't do.

Nextgen won't change change how airplanes fly, and ATC already has groundspeed from radar. Nextgen would give more frequent updates of speed, but I don't see how it would help maintaining separation with configuration changes that alter airspeed.
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Next Generation will allow a more precise system which will allow more aircraft in a smaller space. Instead of 1950s radar technology GPS will be used to better direct aircraft around, give more favorable routes, direct aircraft around weather, and allow for more aircraft during saturation periods.

ATC having 'groundspeed from radar' is not enough. Next Generation will allow ATC to have a broader picture, such as seeing what speed the pilot dials into the autopilot, altitude is selected, and a lot of commands the pilot is actually imputing into the machine. This will allow ATC to actually see what the pilot is doing instead of anticipating, which will in turn ad another layer of safety, as well as allow for tighter spacing margins.

Sooo.....to get back to your question, ATC will be able to see if an airplane is not doing what they want them to do before it even becomes a traffic deviation issue.
 
Seggy said:
A lot.



Next Generation will allow a more precise system which will allow more aircraft in a smaller space. Instead of 1950s radar technology GPS will be used to better direct aircraft around, give more favorable routes, direct aircraft around weather, and allow for more aircraft during saturation periods.

ATC having 'groundspeed from radar' is not enough. Next Generation will allow ATC to have a broader picture, such as seeing what speed the pilot dials into the autopilot, altitude is selected, and a lot of commands the pilot is actually imputing into the machine. This will allow ATC to actually see what the pilot is doing instead of anticipating, which will in turn ad another layer of safety, as well as allow for tighter spacing margins.

Sooo.....to get back to your question, ATC will be able to see if an airplane is not doing what they want them to do before it even becomes a traffic deviation issue.
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I haven't seen any mechanism where FMS or autopilot inputs would be sent via ADS-B -- where can I look at the specification for this?
 
drunkenbeagle said:
I haven't seen any mechanism where FMS or autopilot inputs would be sent via ADS-B -- where can I look at the specification for this?
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From my understanding, in many places in Europe and other parts of the globe, the controllers can actually see what the pilot put into the autopilot and/or FMS. Not sure how it is transmitted, whether by ADS-B or other avenue.
 
Seggy said:
From my understanding, in many places in Europe and other parts of the globe, the controllers can actually see what the pilot put into the autopilot and/or FMS. Not sure how it is transmitted, whether by ADS-B or other avenue.
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Honest question, I am a mostly engineer and some time pilot, but I do frequently work for the folks make this stuff. Will look around and report back.
 
ATC will be able to push commands through ACARS and other systems... The pilot will just accept/reject the commands and they'll be placed into the FMS automatically, helping to reduce errors.

The technology is already in most newer aircraft, just not fully utilized yet.
 
Seggy said:
From my understanding, in many places in Europe and other parts of the globe, the controllers can actually see what the pilot put into the autopilot and/or FMS. Not sure how it is transmitted, whether by ADS-B or other avenue.
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"Kinda"

I tink the Brits can see your altimetry, but I don't think the datastream includes FMC.

Their system is actually worse than the US because you'll hold 80% of the time going into LHR, their arrival tracks are crap and the whole continuous descent arrival isn't necessarily the most pilot friendly. Program a CDA into an arrival procedure and be done with it people! :)
 
Derg said:
"Kinda"

I tink the Brits can see your altimetry, but I don't think the datastream includes FMC.

Their system is actually worse than the US because you'll hold 80% of the time going into LHR, their arrival tracks are crap and the whole continuous descent arrival isn't necessarily the most pilot friendly. Program a CDA into an arrival procedure and be done with it people! :)
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Or London Control giving you 5 degrees left for 300 miles. :)
 
dasleben said:
Or London Control giving you 5 degrees left for 300 miles. :)
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Oh lord.

Here you are, flying along in flight, in LNAV, fat, dumb and happy.

"Airliner 123, say heading"

"heading 343 direct KOKSY"

"Airliner 123, turn left five degrees, Easy 419 climb level three hundred"

20 minutes.

Next freq

"London, Airliner 123, flight level 340, assigned heading 340."

"Airliner 123, London, turn right 10 degrees. Speedbird 678 turn left radar heading 120 when able direct Standfield"
 
I'm no expert on jets to the OP, but I will definitely say that sometimes "slowing down" and "going down" are mutually exclusive. You get one or the other - not both in a lot of airplanes...
 
dasleben said:
Or London Control giving you 5 degrees left for 300 miles. :)
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The joke I have heard is they are paid by radar vector over there. But I have also been told that they can run traffic closer together by vectoring vs own nav, don't remember where or who told me that so it could be total BS.

What gets me is when they combine everything up so you get "turn right 10 degrees, climb flight level two hundred, and call London now 135.257 and tell them your heading" my colonial ears just can't handle all of that at once.

If your ADS-B out is turned on they can see all of that data that is transmitted, it is a bunch of stuff. It is already mandated in certain parts of the world like Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong, and Vietnam on certain routes. The US is presently scheduled to require it in 2020.
 
Meh....if you can't do something just say no. I just came in to HKG from BKK and they slowed us waaaaaay down then wanted a crossing restriction. I just said I can do one or the other, which do you want? He said speed and get down when you can. Problem solved, it's just communication. Trying to be a hero in a 747 or 777 is just going to cause a go around so may as well talk it out.
 
rjmore said:
Meh....if you can't do something just say no. I just came in to HKG from BKK and they slowed us waaaaaay down then wanted a crossing restriction. I just said I can do one or the other, which do you want? He said speed and get down when you can. Problem solved, it's just communication. Trying to be a hero in a 747 or 777 is just going to cause a go around so may as well talk it out.
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That's exactly it. Easy policy.
 
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