why do you keep slowing down

RetiredATLATC

RetiredATLATC

Well-Known Member
I understand when I tell you short approach you want to get down as quickly as possible, but this doesn't mean you can slow from your assigned speed without saying anything. This is becoming a bigger problem at ATL approach lately, where today I've had two pilot deviations with the second one where a traffic alert had to be called because the B739 decided he'd help me by slowing to 170k from his assigned 210k, and he almost wore a CRJ9.

Am I missing something or some FAR that gives the pilot authority to slow without notification?

I'm not sure if it's because some of the newer crews that haven't flown into ATL much kinda can do what they want because at the less congested airports there's no one else that'll be a conflict, but this is becoming a daily occurance at least a dozen+ times a day.

If you want to slow, all ya gotta do is tell me so we're both on the same page.

ask for CJ
:eek2:
 
I was about to ask you about your new LCC carrier and ask if you LUV them, but I don't think they fly the 739
 
A80TRACON said:
I understand when I tell you short approach you want to get down as quickly as possible, but this doesn't mean you can slow from your assigned speed without saying anything. This is becoming a bigger problem at ATL approach lately, where today I've had two pilot deviations with the second one where a traffic alert had to be called because the B739 decided he'd help me by slowing to 170k from his assigned 210k, and he almost wore a CRJ9.

Am I missing something or some FAR that gives the pilot authority to slow without notification?

I'm not sure if it's because some of the newer crews that haven't flown into ATL much kinda can do what they want because at the less congested airports there's no one else that'll be a conflict, but this is becoming a daily occurance at least a dozen+ times a day.

If you want to slow, all ya gotta do is tell me so we're both on the same page.

ask for CJ
:eek2:
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You sure it was a -900 and not an -800? This is typical behavior for SWA, but they don't fly -900s.

To answer your question, though, I flew out of Atlanta for 8 years, and I never deviated from an assigned speed, nor did any of the guys I flew with. There's no reason for any pilot to believe that he has authority to slow from an assigned speed just because of a short approach. But some airlines think that the rules don't apply to them, unfortunately.
 
I knew it! Good luck breaking them of that. When we were a hub it took an act of Congress to get then to turn standard rate per the old guys.

Not that my TRACON is in the same league as A80, but for short approaches with those guys on a downwind don't even mention short approach or sequence. Just get them below about 5,000 and they're less prone to "help you out"

Where I'm at, failing to do the above while stuffing one in will result in 150 knots 30% of the time.

Like ATN said. Some don't feel like the rules apply and that'd be one prime offender. Hopefully they don't bug you to death asking the sequence.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You sure it was a -900 and not an -800? This is typical behavior for SWA, but they don't fly -900s.
Click to expand...

It wasn't a SWA, but ATL's flagship airline. That's neither hear nor there because they both do it.

Now who want to hear about my SWA pilot deviation today when 11nm from the airport he was still climbing out at 200k's (instead of the immediate accel to 250) and almost got passed by a B763?

:aghast:

in 175 days I'll be in Baghdad and this FAA nightmare will all be behind me. (EOD 1987)
 
A80TRACON said:
It wasn't a SWA, but ATL's flagship airline. That's neither hear nor there because they both do it.

Now who want to hear about my SWA pilot deviation today when 11nm from the airport he was still climbing out at 200k's (instead of the immediate accel to 250) and almost got passed by a B763?

:aghast:

in 175 days I'll be in Baghdad and this FAA nightmare will all be behind me. (EOD 1987)
Click to expand...
Are you working with Adam, Memphis center xfer?
 
Ah. We were wondering how he is doing.

Back on topic even in the center environment the guys we luv will still screw you over. I have had a stream going into BNA all on the rnav arrival, same type and company, running 8-10 miles in trail. Next thing I know the guy in the middle decides to put the brakes on. Company all around him is doing 310...he decides to do 270. I never trust em anymore.
 
In some airplanes, if you're high, beam and are told short approach, you have to slow to get down (counterintuitive sounding of course) because if you dive at 210-250, you're going to be in a devil of a corner trying to dive, decelerate and be stabilized by reaching 1000 AFE.

MD80's are awesome for staying fast during a short approach, Airbii and the big Boeings, not so much because of a high number of unstabilized approaches and flaps being "high lift" rather than drag from too many overspeeds trying to help out ATC or shoot approaches which were completely doable on other airplanes.

High, downwind abeam and high you're going to put yourself into a high energy approach which is going to cause all sorts of madness for some airplanes.

Generally. I'll tell ATC that we have to slow in this scenario.

@PeanuckleCRJ, thoughts?
 
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The 73's are a bear to get down... Doing first flights here in Renton, we fly them like we stole them from time to time. Even with full boards and gear down, they're slippery as hell.

Coming back into SEA, we'll typically try to slow if we're getting stuck high in close. Doesn't normally happen, but it's nice to be able to lose the energy when you can so you can get down and back on speed quickly.
 
We had a lot of unstabilized approaches because we were trying to fly some of the more modern airplanes like DC-9's, 727's, other "non slippery" airplanes or just trying to be a hero for ATC.

They've effectively beat it into our heads that the newer jets are going to descend or slow, choose one and speedbrakes really don't do a lot except make noise when you're in a high energy situation.

If you leave a SouthernJets bus high, tight and clear him for the visual on a short approach, expect selecting 170 knots, speedbrakes flaps, gear flaps flaps, diving at 170KIAS, final flaps and approach speed three to five miles out.
 
Yeah, I used to luv that certain airline too - you could count on them to yank, bank, dive, go fast, etc., and in exchange they'd chip at you for the sequence or shortcuts but that was fine. Now... do. not. trust. I understand that there is much I don't understand about flying a plane - like all the speed/approach stuff mentioned above. Or if there are company policies. That's where slowing before we expect you to would be helpful to know.

With that same luvely carrier I hate to fly the plane for you but I feel like if I don't give very specific instructions I don't know what I'll get. I swear they do not descend at standard rate. Even with an incentive like cleared to a shortcut leaving a certain altitude - that used to work but not anymore.

Every now and then I get pilots try to "help" out - slow so they can get down and keep it tight, therefore land and be 'out of the way' quicker, even though now they are very much in the way of the aircraft behind them, or they try to control themselves via request/suggestion for a plan other than the one I am working on... I appreciate the thought, but you're effin' me up, man!! LOL I know we don't seem busy or you don't see the other a/c but trust me...bigger picture, there's usually a good or mostly logical reason for what I'm doing.

Luckily this is all rare at my current facility, being painfully slow much of the time as it is.
 
AM011309 said:
Thought it was 1000'/minute? That's what we're taught anyway.
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Nope. Nothing in the FARs or AIM about that. The autopilot would automatically initiate 500 fpm for a commanded descent if below the ECON descent path to wait for intercept, too, so apparently the manufacturer (Douglas/Boeing) wasn't aware that you guys wanted that, either. :)
 
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