Who is retiring soon?/ Age 60/65 rule...

[surreal1221]

Re: Age 60 (65) Rule

You're obviously not reading into my comment nor position correctly.

I think ALPA is a stellar organization with an appropriate goal (generally speaking) but with the wrong approach, mentality, and leadership (generally speaking). I was actually somewhat anti-union prior to my hire (still am somewhat anti-union, not anti-ALPA), became a heavy supporter in my 121 experience, and still am pro-ALPA. However, the organization has more issues and shortcomings to deal with than the American financial institutions.

My opinion hasn't changed one bit and I am still a huge proponent of the profession, union pilots, and what they all hope for. I do however firmly believe that if ALPA wants to get anywhere, they need a serious change in leadership, tactics, and agenda. When I say "typical ALPA mentality", that's exactly what I mean. The union needs to stop acting like a union per se and must behave and negotiate like the business unit that they are. At that juncture, they will move in the appropriate direction but not until that paradigm shift happens through tough leadership and policies.

In essence, your web based opinion of my position couldn't be more wrong.

Wonderful. . .glad to know I was wrong.

Nevertheless, your perception of what they need to do is - to put it mildly - null and void considering your departure from the profession. Perhaps if there is a return you can put your internet philosophy of the organization to work, til then. . .

 

[MikeD]

Re: Age 60 (65) Rule

Wonderful. . .glad to know I was wrong.

Nevertheless, your perception of what they need to do is - to put it mildly - null and void considering your departure from the profession. Perhaps if there is a return you can put your internet philosophy of the organization to work, til then. . .

People are entitled to opine on an issue, even better make an informed opinion....no secret handshake required.

We have people here on the board that discuss military subjects, who have already departed the military service......you included, who has opined on many subjects in the military forum, I might add. They have no right to opine on those issues, using your logic?

Or just when you may not agree with it?

....to put it mildly.

Continue.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Age 60 (65) Rule

Oh I'm sorry, didn't know I told him he can't opine about an issue?

Did I agree or disagree with what he said? I'm not even sure, but you seem to know.

I only stated that he is going to have very little impact on the direction of the organization if he isn't involved or vested in the profession. I don't necessarily see anything incorrect with that.

 

[hotice]

Gents, knock off the personal stuff and lets keep it civil. I merged/reopened this thread because it had some great info and discussion going, it just needed a short timeout to let some emotions cool. Now lets keep the good info and discussion going, alright?

And answer my damn question!

I totally agree!

 

[FlyChicaga]

Wow, some people posting in this thread need to worry about reaching age 65. You'll medical out with hypertension and high blood pressure with the way things are going. Good luck to you.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Age 60 (65) Rule

Oh I'm sorry, didn't know I told him he can't opine about an issue?

Did I agree or disagree with what he said? I'm not even sure, but you seem to know.

I only stated that he is going to have very little impact on the direction of the organization if he isn't involved or vested in the profession. I don't necessarily see anything incorrect with that.

You knew what you meant....with the "til then..."; you've used it before

And it was/is wrong.

Glad you reversed your opinion.

 

[derg]

Wow, some people posting in this thread need to worry about reaching age 65. You'll medical out with hypertension and high blood pressure with the way things are going. Good luck to you.

Sorry man, I was taking some beta blockers, whut?!

 

[Fins Up]

I seem to remember a caveat to the age 65 rule that said if one pilot is over 65 then the other had to be under 65? Did that make it in or was that jst in the initial proposals? Because if that's the case, there goes your argument for bo difference between a 59 year old and a 65 year old.

As far as "career expectations", all the older fellas worked in this industry for a long time knowing that at age 60, they were finished.
For them to claim that the young guys not being happy with the rule change is hypocritical.
For you guys who want to work the extra five years, how nice for you. For those of us who don't our "career expectations" were changed in the negative to benefit the elders.
But like somebody else said earlier, don't worry about it. We'll pick up the tab.

This thread would make an interesting study for somebody's sociology class.

Pardon the typos. I'm nerding this up via my Blackberry.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Age 60 (65) Rule

You knew what you meant....with the "til then..."; you've used it before

And it was/is wrong.

Glad you reversed your opinion.

Okay? You have a better memory or time on your hands than I do, I can't really recall the last time I said "til then..."

Also it's worth noting that your military example doesn't really work.

As service members we are not the policy makers, we execute the policy - even if we disagree. Our civilian leadership sets the course, we go. Opine all we want. Never will any of our opinions come to fruition.

As union members the opportunities exist at every step to make policy and to drive the direction that the organization we take part in goes. Discussions have multiple impacts, along with attending LEC and MEC meetings, joining committees at your own airline or at ALPA national.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Age 60 (65) Rule

Okay?

Also it's worth noting that your military example doesn't really work.

As service members we are not the policy makers, we execute the policy - even if we disagree. Our civilian leadership sets the course, we go.

As union members, the opportunity exists at every step to make policy and to drive the direction that the organization we take part in goes.

Quibble all you like with details, it will be for not. My example is regarding the simple concept of discussing subjects that one is involved in, or not. You've taken the former point of view on that before in a very direct way, and have realized it doesn't hold water.

I applaud that realization. Now lets all move on.

And to address your subject, one can do things to affect policy at the micro, unit level in the military. But again, apples and mangos.

 

[derg]

Re: Age 60 (65) Rule

Well, we're airline pilots, we complain! Trust me, if you got a peek into the DALPA forum, you'd see a whole different side of Doug Taylor that no one's really seen.

Vigorous debate about the issue is great, but when it jumps the rails and sinks to a personal level, it pretty much closes the door on a rational discussion and people just gawk.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Age 60 (65) Rule

Quibble all you like with details, it will be for not. My example is regarding the simple concept of discussing subjects that one is involved in, or not. You've taken the former point of view on that before in a very direct way, and have realized it doesn't hold water.

I applaud that realization. Now lets all move on.

And to address your subject, one can do things to affect policy at the micro, unit level in the military. But again, apples and mangos.

Speaking to the choir in regards to micro, but that's micro. Won't break down my veteran resume for you - can't even come close to yours. But that's neither here nor there.

While I recognized your intent, the example just didn't work. Merit was specifically discussing the macro changes that he philosophically felt were needed. Your example didn't necessarily address micro or macro but that aside the significant differences of "member" control of the "organization" voided the example.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Age 60 (65) Rule

Speaking to the choir in regards to micro, but that's micro. I sure loved rearranging my work center every 10 months. I also greatly enjoyed organizing "committee" initiatives and how best to utilize the "funds" from various "fundraisers."

Preaching to the choir. And for the record, I respect your veteran status....not any better or worse than mine, just different....as all of ours are. A unit is only as good as its people. You have tools as managers, you get tool work details and other BS in a unit. Other units have people that realize that there's far more important to be done than CBTs, reflector belts, MEO/SARC briefings, etc et al

Merit was specifically discussing the macro changes that he philosophically felt were needed. Your example didn't necessarily address micro or macro.

And you both have good points that are valid. It makes no difference who is in a position to do what, in order to have a valid opinion that they can post.

End of story.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming!

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Age 60 (65) Rule

There never is an end to the story. Just another chapter.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Age 60 (65) Rule

There never is an end to the story. Just another chapter.

You're probably right. My only contention is that if some here in these threads (not necessarily you) would put aside emotions for just a moment; they may find out that they have much more in common with someone they may be disagreeing with, than they realize.

Ok, maybe not with the Age 65 thing......kind of a tougher nut to crack with how people are affected by it depending where you are in the career, I realize.....but on many other things, I believe my former contention to be true.

Beyond that, I only hope the airline industry turns around soon. Sure, I have no vested interest in it personally, but in a way I do: I hate seeing friends....some close friends, who simply went to make a living in a career they worked hard for to get to, have to be on furlough......essentially paying the bar tab for a check that isn't their's to have had to pay in the first place. Problems, some through bad mgmt/financial decisions of others, that were caused by factors out of their control....that they fell to the mercy of.

It sucks. Sure, life's a gamble. But these guys sure had the house odds wildly against them. Hearing about Eagle's latest, only makes the situation worse.

Pardon the rambling.........

Back to the 65 stuff.

 

[JoelT]

Re: Age 60 (65) Rule

Well, we're airline pilots, we complain! Trust me, if you got a peek into the DALPA forum, you'd see a whole different side of Doug Taylor that no one's really seen.

I love the Dalpa version of Doug Taylor! I would also like to see the JC version of Randy (RT). :crazy:

 

[Velocipede]

There are some CAs I have flown with who would like to retire. The reason - They are tired of "some BS". They are not tired of flying. I feel bad for them when their retirement package got take away from them.

Generally speaking, the retirement language in most contracts didn't change with Age 65. Ours still (for the moment!) says normal retirement eligibility commences at 30 years of service OR age 60.

Now, if the Company changes that language to "age 65" or even "regulatory retirement age" then retiring at age 60 would be a 5 year "early" retirement. And in my contract that means losing 7% PER YEAR.

Now, if you're referring to the guys whose pensions were abrogated by the bankruptcy court, I'd agree with you.

To be honest, I have to thanks for this rule. I can fly 5 more years.

Everyone can. That's why the guys who squeal, "They're stealing MY seat for 5 years" come off as self-serving and greedy. You'll get there. Have a little patience.

I seem to remember a caveat to the age 65 rule that said if one pilot is over 65 then the other had to be under 65? Did that make it in or was that jst in the initial proposals? Because if that's the case, there goes your argument for bo difference between a 59 year old and a 65 year old.

True. But we have all kinds of crew pairing rules now. Low minimums Captains can't be paired with new hire F/Os either.

As far as "career expectations", all the older fellas worked in this industry for a long time knowing that at age 60, they were finished.
For them to claim that the young guys not being happy with the rule change is hypocritical.

I disagree. Rules, regulations and laws change every day. If, for example, they change the driver's licensing age to 18 does every 14 year old get one at 16 because he had that expectation? When they changed the drinking age to 21, did every 18 to 20 year old have the right to keep drinking because they already could?

Age 65 is the law. Age 60 isn't coming back. EVER. Guys who whine about it need to get over it.

For you guys who want to work the extra five years, how nice for you. For those of us who don't our "career expectations" were changed in the negative to benefit the elders.

Again, I call B.S. You have the option to work until you're 65 now, just like every other pilot in the WORLD. You also have the option to take an early retirement any time you want. Your "career expectations" haven't changed, only your upgrade timeline. And, if your airline has stopped growing or is shrinking, that's a YOUR AIRLINE problem, not a regulatory one. Remember, most upgrades come from expansion. This is an era of retrenchment up and down the airline spectrum.

Sorry if you're stuck yanking gear, but EVERYONE'S prospects have stalled for now. And AGAIN, YOUR CAREER LIFE SPAN HAS BEEN EXTENDED 5 YEARS, TOO.

Someday when you're 50 and sitting in a left seat, it will irritate you when the whippersnappers start calling for YOU to retire, I guarantee it.

 

[derg]

Re: Age 60 (65) Rule

I love the Dalpa version of Doug Taylor! I would also like to see the JC version of Randy (RT). :crazy:

I've mellowed significantly. I was a DALPA forum pyromaniac 2001-2005. The mentality at the time, "Well, the man in the sharp suit said this is how it is, so this is how it is, hut hut hut soldiers" used to send me in convulsions.

I've met RT before, pretty quiet. I think I scared him! And I'm a big puffball.

 

[Seggy]

I think Doug is REALLY General Lee

Bye Bye--

 

[derg]

Nope!

Lots of folks ask me who he is. I'm still trying to figure out how in the world I'd know?!