Which one of you guys... (Skywest)

[GaTechKid]

I heard it was a nosewheel steering issue.

 

[flyguy]

As I understand it SKYW has special SKYW only procedures for Aspen which include a "point of no return" on approaches into Aspen where they cannot go missed after reaching.

Well sort of. We have a special SKW only LOC DME approach into ASE that has a kind of a "point of no return". Its not that we cannot go missed after that point, but after that point if we do the mormal missed approach procedure which is a right turn, that would put us into a montain, so after that point we have an alternate procedure that involves a left 270 turn. So it not a "point of no return" its a "point of using extraction proceudre rather than normal missued approach." It is considered an emergency procedure however, because it does not allow for the required IFR terrain clearance, but in an emergency situation, it can get you out of the area without hitting anything, provided you are very precise with it. That's one reason ASE requires special training. But yeah, if you really need to get out, you can even go around after a balked landing, even single engine.

 

[flyguy]

On a side note about ASE. One thing that is really cool is they have another localizer on a mountain off the south end of the field that does not lead to any runway. The only reason it is there is becasue its back course will guide you through the terrain if you have to go missed.

 

[WAFlyBoy]

It's just a very dangerous airport with an aircraft as anemic as a CRJ, even a -700.

Did you just calll the CRJ-700 "anemic?" Maybe compared to a 757.......

But as addressed previously, these flights are weight restricted when necessary to ensure compliance with required performance. (Like all part 121 flights, right?)

 

[flyguy]

Actually, the only time I've had issues with weight restrictions in ASE was if we were heading to LAX, SFO, or ORD (long flights with lots of fuel) and we have a tailwind. Same with landing weights, usually only an issue if there is a tailwind. Since we can only takeoff to the north and only land to the south, tailwinds are a pain, but we will usually figure out how much tailwind we can take and wait for it to come down to it, rather than kick people or bags off. So usually weight restrictions aren't that big a problem there. There are however PLENTY of times flights will be cancelled do to tailwinds, and even more in the winter due to visbility (we need 3 sm to land and 2 sm to takeoff) and runway condition. I got stuck there for 2 days last December. Visibility never went about 1 sm. Good times.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Well sort of. We have a special SKW only LOC DME approach into ASE that has a kind of a "point of no return". Its not that we cannot go missed after that point, but after that point if we do the mormal missed approach procedure which is a right turn, that would put us into a montain, so after that point we have an alternate procedure that involves a left 270 turn. So it not a "point of no return" its a "point of using extraction proceudre rather than normal missued approach." It is considered an emergency procedure however, because it does not allow for the required IFR terrain clearance, but in an emergency situation, it can get you out of the area without hitting anything, provided you are very precise with it. That's one reason ASE requires special training. But yeah, if you really need to get out, you can even go around after a balked landing, even single engine.

Ah, understood. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[taseal]

Isn't the definition of an airplane crash "anytime you leave the runway unvolunarily during take off or landing, have to fill out report and/or have the NTSB look into the situation"?

let me see if I can remember this lol

any substantial damage to airplane. which would include anything that would affect the flight characteristics of the plane?

or if anyone was seriously injured, which defines as a person being admitted to the hospital within 7 days upto 48 hours

god too much stuff to remember

 

[BobDDuck]

god too much stuff to remember

Don't worry... if you do any of that stuff, they've be coming to find you.

 

[taseal]

Don't worry... if you do any of that stuff, they've be coming to find you.

 

[bike21]

It wasn't me in SAT. But I almost went of the runway in SUN last month...

Thanks for sharing and great job staying cool and getting it done safely I have been chatting it up on the SAPA forums about how I wish we had a quarterly or monthly safety briefing about such things. This would be a great example. I volunteered to coordinate such an effort, so we shall see.

If you wouldn't mind, I would love to have some more details via PM. Seems like good info to know!


Other 121 guys here - do you have any regular reports about company incidents out on the line? I think UAL has one but I haven't seen it for awhile. I will ask tomorrow when jumpseating home.

 

[zmiller4]

Other 121 guys here - do you have any regular reports about company incidents out on the line? I think UAL has one but I haven't seen it for awhile. I will ask tomorrow when jumpseating home.

I think UAL still has theirs--I saw it last fall when jumpseating on them. It was really well done...totally de-identified, professional layout, etc. I would think that if we just had something similar it wouldn't have the issues that they seem to be worried about on the "other" forums.

 

[BobDDuck]

UAL puts out "Safetyliner" or at least they used to. I've gotten a lot of really good stuff from them. Over here, per the contract the company is supposed to put out a monthly ASAP update which includes over all trends and a few deidentified reports. Unfortunately our ASAP program (on the company side) has gone through some turmoil recently and the reports come out about twice a year. The ALPA safety committee here has been getting out short updates in our monthly newsletter which discuss a trend that ASAPs have been showing and suggested solutions or reminders on how to avoid the trend. I personally would like to see more and I think once we get our new website launched that may happen.

I wrote this for out latest newsletter. The original survey data came from Safetyliner and the artical concept came from smartcockpit.com

The “Street Smart” Pilot

Accidents happen. Despite a flight crew’s best effort, gremlins can creep in to the system and lead to undesired outcomes. A street smart pilot is one who attempts to limit the possibility of these gremlins by knowing where and when to find critical information. A street smart pilot is able to detect and compensate for the mistakes of others as well as avoid traps and pitfalls that are all too plentiful in the flying environment.

Several years ago, United Airlines interviewed pilots who had completed at least 25 years of flying with no accidents and asked questions about what it took to be a street smart pilot. The group included pilots from 6 countries and a variety of background from 121 operations to NASA test pilots. Responses were grouped into 3 categories including “Attitude or Mindset”, “Teamwork/Crew Coordination” and finally “Awareness”.
A sampling or responses to each category follow:
Attitude
· There's almost nothing that needs to be done in a hurry while in an aircraft.
· Plan ahead for normal events and be prepared for unexpected contingencies.
· Pay attention to your sixth sense. If something feels wrong, it probably is.
· Keep your options open - never become committed to a single course of action with a high
degree of risk.
· The way to be safe is never to be comfortable.
· Return to basics if you become confused.
· Maintain a healthy level of suspicion.
· Avoid complacency; the minute you think something won't hurt you - it will!
· Never go on a flight with a head full of problems; leave them on the ground or stay on the ground
yourself.
· Be open minded to constructive criticism.
· The common thread among all survivors is common sense.
· The things that get pilots in trouble are incorrect premises and fixation.

Teamwork and Crew Coordination
· Share information with your crew. To the extent that you share information with them, they will
share information with you and tell you if you have made a mistake.
· Don't try to do everything yourself.
· Surprises are nice on birthdays and Christmas, but have no place in aviation. Let everyone
know what you are thinking, planning, and doing.
· Always question, never assume.
· Evaluate the people you fly with - to understand and compensate for their strengths and
weaknesses.

Awareness
· Pilots should give equal priority to landing or going around. Never assume that any approach will
end in a landing.
· Know what data is driving the flight director bars and always monitor and believe the raw data.
· Detailed knowledge of the Flight Management System (FMS) is essential in all glass-cockpit
aircraft.
· Trouble can begin when the wheels touch the runway; yet everybody seems to relax then.
· Maintain a terrain awareness and a general knowledge of the topography over which you are
flying.
· Know where you want to be, where you are, and where you are going.
· Don't touch a switch without looking and knowing what, when, and why you want to move it.
· You don't have time to make all of the mistakes, so you have to learn from others.
· Develop effective listening skills including the ability to filter out lower priority information and
return to it later.
· Listen to others and find out how they do things - then re-evaluate your own habit patterns.

One interesting result of the survey was that in very few cases did any of these pilots mention stick and rudder skills. That makes sense as very few accidents can be attributed to a pilot not being able to fly an airplane. Also, those skills tend to be the ones that we get repetitive training on during simulator events while there isn’t as much emphasis on decision making skills beyond what is required to shoot an approach.

While a conclusion wasn’t drawn from the data collected it is very apparent that many of the responses deal with ways to prevent complacency and provide coping skills that have a history of working in the environment we operate in.

 

[Buzo]

When did SkyWest quit doing night time circle to lands in the CRJ. They were approved when I left in March. We couldn't circle below 1000/3, but we could circle. There was also no restriction as to who did the approach. In the EMB, only the Capt could do the circle if it was below 1000/3.

 

[BobDDuck]

We couldn't circle below 1000/3, but we could circle.

Umm... That would be VFR.

 

[Buzo]

Umm... That would be VFR.

I am aware of that, but there are quite a few circling approaches where the circling mins are higher than 1000/3.

 

[Pablo]

Ophir, thanks for the interesting story. What plane were you flying?

 

[sky7]

I just flew the plane. The MX writeup states that at touchdown, a "steering inop" caution message appeared. the crew applied opposite braking and opposite rudder but the airplane still went off the runway.

That is all I know and anything beyond that (by you or me) is speculation. I'm not saying anybody has, but be careful not to hang the crew unless you were there and have all the facts.

 

[mrivc211]

I had that happen to me while turning off the runway at about 10 knots, but without the message. I still had brakes and quickly pushed them to buy me time. I quickly reset the steering switch and we got back our steering. That one gave me about 10 gray hairs.

 

[KLB]

We can defer our nose wheel steering on the metro which makes it a real pita to taxi and land. It would suck if it malfunctions and catches you off guard. I don't know a metro pilot out there who hasn't forgotten to arm the nose wheel steering for landing few times.