Which one of you guys... (Skywest)

[Lee D]

I work at a small uncontrolled airport in Cody, WY and I really dont think the alot of the Skywest pilots knows how to fly in to uncontrolled airports. Watched one the other day land long with a 15 knot tailwind, I wouldve swore he was going off the runway, but he used every last inch. Skywest pilots are the first to go missed and its quite frequent that I watch them break out of the clouds 5 miles before the airport but they go missed every time. Just the other day Skywest went missed twice then diverted because of the smoke and probably a dozen other corporate planes landed who all told me they didnt even come close to minimums and were astounded Skywest would divert in such good weather. I was just wondering if theres a reason for this? Or they just not used to a VOR circle to land approach? MESA never seems to have a problem. And why in the world dont Skywest have the capability to use the GPS straight in approach with the lower minimums? even my 172 can do that. Anyways just wondering, I have only flown Corporate 91 and dont have any 121 experiance.

The CRJ, at least at SkyWest is not certified for the circle to land. In the Brasilia we do it. Currently the RJ lands at Cody, though I have landed the Brasilia there many times. I think I can speak for most of us when I say that the circle to land, especially at night to runway 4 is a real nail biter. (Large mountain if you fly downwind too long, then rising/dropping terrain on final. In other words don't fly to long on downwind and don't be low on final for the circle to land. . . .or you WILL hit something.) Personally I found that turning just before you over fly Wal-Mart worked perfectly for cat C circles.
The Brasilia can do the VOR approach or GPS approaches. From what FLYGUY mentioned above it looks like the RJ doesnt do GPS approaches yet. Personally I think Cody WY is more appropriate for turboprop flying than RJ's. Not sure why they switched it earlier this summer. (Yeah I need a little cheese with that whine.)

Reading between the lines here I take it you think SkyWest pilots are a bunch of fraidy cats.
I can't tell you why anyone would deliberately land with a 15 knot tail wind. (10 knots is the limit.) Though in the number of years I landed at Cody I found that the winds were usually gusty, with decent mechanical turbulence and wind shear from the hills and mountains that surround the field. (I bet 75% of my flights into Cody involved moderate turbulence followed by a gusty wind landing.) Most likely he got the winds from the AWOS 10 minutes before landing and things then changed.

With regard to go arounds, all I can say is that if you don't have the field by the VDP you go around. Why the corporate operators got in that day and we didn't. . . . who knows? NONE of us want the hassle of a go around and subsequent diversion. They are not going to divert unless they have to. Likely if the winds are favoring runway 4 and they have to use the circle mins then they have to go missed much earlier. If the corporate outfits can circle and do the GPS approaches, they have a much better advantage.

Smoke is a funny thing too. The other day going into Sun Valley while a large fire burned about 20 miles away, we had 30 miles of visibility 10 minutes out. 5 minutes out it went to 10 miles vis, and we could still see the field. Then it disappeared in the smoke within less than a minute. We had to go back cancel our visual approach, go back to the initial for the GPS and then shoot the approach down to the wire before we saw the field. My point is that smoke and weather are dynamic; they can change rather quickly. Your mileage may vary greatly from the guy who landed or tired to land before you.

BTW I wasn't in San Antonio.

 

[flyguy]

Well, say it was a systems failure? Bad performance data?

If you simply fire the pilots, there might be a procedural issue that doesn't get discovered or fixed.

My airline ran A LOT of mad dogs off the runway and determined that it was a systems issue and folks that are flying on that fleet daily are benefitting from the joint partnership between our safety department and the airline.

:yeahthat:

And for the record, this SKW has run a plane off a runway before with the pilot's jobs intact when it was all said and done. Just because we have no union does not mean we will be fired on a whim, with no investigation etc. That's the absolute last I'm going to say about it. If this turns into another union debate I'm unsubscribing from the thread.

 

[surreal1221]

We're Circle-To-Land approved as well, only Day VMC though.

 

[Fly_Unity]

We are not authorized for circle to land, or GPS approaches.

Interesting... That answers my questions.

 

[Bumblebee]

The pilots should call their union rep...oh wait...never mind.

Or they could call me (SAPA rep):crazy:

(they probably already have)

Oh, be gentle!

Salt Lake happens to be our largest base. That's probably where he is if he lives in UT.

Not the biggest Bro base . . .dude:buck:

must be a low time FO flying...

that's funny and I see the sarcasm tag. . . but we haven't hired any body with less than 1000, (unless maybe within a very short timeframe when we might have hired someone with 850tt with airline experience).:bandit:

 

[flyguy]

Not the biggest Bro base . . .dude:buck:

Isn't it?? What is then, FAT? Still, if he lives in UT, there's a good chance he's SLC based, or at least he will be when he can hold it.

 

[flyguy]

We're Circle-To-Land approved as well, only Day VMC though.

:yeahthat:

 

[zmiller4]

Isn't it?? What is then, FAT? Still, if he lives in UT, there's a good chance he's SLC based, or at least he will be when he can hold it.

FAT--about 195 total pilots; SLC--90 total pilots. There are a ton of guys from my class who went from CRJ FO SLC to FAT EMB CA. I'd be willing to bet I know her family member...

I work at a small uncontrolled airport in Cody, WY and I really dont think the alot of the Skywest pilots knows how to fly in to uncontrolled airports.

They do, seriously! Flying into a place like Cody is a little different in a CRJ than it is in a light airplane, though.

Watched one the other day land long with a 15 knot tailwind, I wouldve swore he was going off the runway, but he used every last inch.

We aren't allowed to land with more than a 10kt tailwind. With the elevation there, I doubt the crew would knowingly land with more than that. We obviously check the AWOS, but there's a chance that it was old information (I don't listen to it all the way down final).

Skywest pilots are the first to go missed and its quite frequent that I watch them break out of the clouds 5 miles before the airport but they go missed every time. Just the other day Skywest went missed twice then diverted because of the smoke and probably a dozen other corporate planes landed who all told me they didnt even come close to minimums and were astounded Skywest would divert in such good weather. I was just wondering if theres a reason for this?

I'd bet that Skywest is the only 121 company that takes jets in there, right? There are pretty strict rules on what constitutes a stabilized approach for us, and I don't know anyone that would push it in a sketchy airport like Cody. A part 91 corporate operator is going to have a much easier time getting in there regulation-wise than Skywest. As others have said, we don't have the capability to use true "circling" minimums as published on the Jepps.

Or they just not used to a VOR circle to land approach? MESA never seems to have a problem. And why in the world dont Skywest have the capability to use the GPS straight in approach with the lower minimums? even my 172 can do that. Anyways just wondering, I have only flown Corporate 91 and dont have any 121 experiance.

As others have also said, we don't circle and can't use GPS approaches in the CRJ's (it's quite expensive to get the certification to do so).

 

[dc3flyer]

:yeahthat:

And for the record, this SKW has run a plane off a runway before with the pilot's jobs intact when it was all said and done. Just because we have no union does not mean we will be fired on a whim, with no investigation etc. That's the absolute last I'm going to say about it. If this turns into another union debate I'm unsubscribing from the thread.

Come on.... I put the in and everything!!!!!

I am the last person that would say to fire these guys, at least with the little info that I have on the incident, with or without a union.

 

[dc3flyer]

oops, double

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

So much to say... so little desire to even say it. And normally I'm the one bashing Skywest.

Anyhow... many RJ operators are not authorized to use circling minimums. I think Mesa is, but I don't know about SKYW. So that may knock out the circling VOR approach.

As far as the GPS? No idea. A few regionals don't have GPS approach authorization yet (they can only use it for enroute) but I'm pretty sure that SKYW can use them for approaches. If it's jets going in there, keep in mind the RJ2 is a cat D aircraft and that can bump the mins up a good amount.

And why they went missed and the corporate guys got in? Who knows. You're making a lot of assumptions about the conditions at the time of arrival.

Mesa we can circle, only captains allowed to perform actual circle maneuver. The FOs have to "go visual" and "enter the pattern" if they're flying.

We, however, don't have GPS approaches approved in our GOM/OpSpecs. My favorite VFR circle is the circle to 33 visual approach into Aspen.

Seeing SKYW CRJs flying into Aspen scares me.

 

[Bumblebee]

Seeing SKYW CRJs flying into Aspen scares me.

Why's that?

 

[jarhead28]

Re: D'oh

Nick am I missing something? Looks like the weather was fine. Not sure I see what you are getting at with the METARs.

Thanks for the explantion for what the cryptic text was. I was trying to figure out what the post was about. Now that I know is a weather report, I can kinda decipher it.

You METAR experts tell me if I got it right:

Ksat 080553z 14009kt 10sm Bkn013 Ovc019 26/23 A3000

San Antonio International at 08:05:53z (or GMT) 14009kt (wind speed ?, thats worse that a hurricane, lol) visibility 10 statute miles, cloud layer broken at 1300' (?), to overcast at 1900', 26/23 (?), A3000 (?)

Can anyone fill in the rest?

 

[dashdriver]

KSAT= San Antonio International
Date&Time= 8th day @0553 Zulu
14009kt=Wind 140@9knots
10sm=Visibility 10 Statute Miles
BKN013 OVC019= Ceiling 1,300 Broken; 1,900 Overcast
26/23= Temprature 26 celsius; Dewpoint 23 celsius
A3000= Altimeter 30.00

I hope that helps

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Why's that?

As I understand it SKYW has special SKYW only procedures for Aspen which include a "point of no return" on approaches into Aspen where they cannot go missed after reaching. There is also an altimeter limitation where if the barometer reaches a certain point they can't come in or leave because if they pop an engine they'll all die.

They've ran a few CRJs off the runway there. It's just a very dangerous airport with an aircraft as anemic as a CRJ, even a -700.

 

[Ophir]

It wasn't me in SAT. But I almost went of the runway in SUN last month. I was landing runway 13, into the wind. It was a flaps 45 landing and the touchdown was in the touchdown zone and smooth, too smooth apparently.

I won't go into too much detail but the WOW sensors didn't work and I couldn't get the plane into reverse. It was a high hot day and I wasn't able to get plane to slow with just brakes either. The ALD is about 5300' and according to the FDR I rolled for about 2000' before electing to go around. I firewalled it and called for the Go-around. The FO was great. We got the flaps up and I rotated with about 200ft of pavement left. It was scary. After we got airborne and got the gear up I pulled the engines back. Because I had exceeded some engine limitations, and given the fact that I couldn't get into reverse, I decided to go to TWF. We landed there with no problems. But, the plane was done until Mx could look at it and they relieved us of duty, with pay, until we had a debrief and our drug tests came back. They sent us back to SIM and I we both had to a trip with check airmen that included a line check. In the end, the director of op basically told me that, "With the exception of a few choice four-letter words on your CVR, good job."

The company was really pretty great at handling the whole thing. The first thing was, "Ok, you're fine, the pax are fine, you had a wild experience, let's just figure it out and it will be fine." There was very little second-guessing (and please, I know this is an internet forum and it may be fun to try and pick it apart, but I'm not providing all the details in order to tell a story about how things can happen, not how it was handled. Please refrain from monday-morning quarterbacking.). The SIM was great and we talked a lot about systems and how to get the WOW switches to activate, etc. It was handled in a way that it seemed the company was behind me 100% and they wanted to learn from it too.

The basic tenet of the story is that ####e can happen very fast out there! My approach was textbook and the landing was textbook. The fact that I couldn't get it into reverse, holy crap! It happens all the time with a soft landing but the normal work around didn't work and they the company confirmed the WOW's didn't activate. I was traveling 167'/second when I elected to go-around and it was a split second decision. It all worked out but you were almost reading about me on August 9th.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Great story Ophir.

 

[zmiller4]

As I understand it SKYW has special SKYW only procedures for Aspen which include a "point of no return" on approaches into Aspen where they cannot go missed after reaching. There is also an altimeter limitation where if the barometer reaches a certain point they can't come in or leave because if they pop an engine they'll all die.

They've ran a few CRJs off the runway there. It's just a very dangerous airport with an aircraft as anemic as a CRJ, even a -700.

I'm not sure how long you've been with Mesa, but I think you're a little misinformed. We do have special procedures in there, but they comply with 121 performance requirements, etc. Flights into and out of there are often weight restricted, and a light 700 is hardly "anemic" (at least less so than a Dash 8). As far as I know, we haven't run one off the runway there, and I've been here about as long as the Aspen flying (NTSB search doesn't show anything either). I could be wrong though.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Huh, perhaps I was mistaken with regards to SKYW aircraft running off the end at ASE. Stuff you hear in a crew room and assume is true.

However, most of the time we can take full pax and bags in the Dash-8 out of Aspen. Or at least full pax and like 30 bags.

 

[BobDDuck]

Stuff you hear in a crew room and assume is true.

Must... resist... obvious joke.