jrh
Well-Known Member
Not me.
When do you become a corporate pilot?
- Thread starter NewPilot1
- Start date
Not me.
jrh
Well-Known Member
No, it's because neither of us is desperate. We've reached a point in our careers where we're more concerned about a decent pay check and decent QOL, rather than the next step up.
Here's a question for any experienced pilot, but I'll address it to NJA_Capt: Based on your name, I'm assuming you are or were a NetJets captain. Therefore I'm also going to assume you're well established in your career as a professional pilot. Now, let's say the OP's potential employer had met *you* right now, at this point in your career. He says, "Hey, I'd really like you to be my pilot. You'll need to get time in the plane for insurance though."
Would *you* charge him? Or on your days off, are you so itching to go get qualified for another job that you'd fly around for free, just happy to be there? If so, why? If not, why not?
This whole thread isn't a question of what's right or wrong. It's a discussion of how desperate for a job one needs to be before they start flying for free.
I'll give you my perspective. Don't know if I qualify as "experienced" or not, I suppose it depends on the metric.
Anyway, if the guy came to me and said "I'd like you to be my pilot" I would probably only agree to fly for him if; 1) I liked him, 2) I was interested in the type of flying he wanted done, 3) I could pick and choose flights based on my schedule which implies that, 4) he has one or more alternate pilots available, and, 5) he was willing to pay *enough* to make it worth my while.
If all 5 conditions were met I'd be happy to do 10 hours of dual to meet insurance requirements if needed, without charging him an hourly rate for my time. If he's willing to spring for 10 hours of flight time with an instructor in a piston single just to meet insurance, I'm willing to invest the time to be eligible to earn some decent side money from him. Now if those 10 hours were spent going to destinations for his purposes (business or pleasure) and he'd be doing the trips even if we weren't doing a check out, I'd charge him.
I'm guessing that some of you guys wouldn't agree with what I'd do in this situation, and that's fine. We all follow our own moral compass in these situations, and mine says that if all of the preconditions that I outlined were met, then obviously the guy wants me to fly for him for reasons above and beyond simple economic ones. That being the case, I certainly don't feel like I'm undermining anyone by not charging for hours spent getting checked out in a Comanche. I've put enough roadbloacks in the way for him to hire me that I think that this is just a professional courtesy to not ding him for another $5000 dollars for flights that don't benefit him directly. This is just a relatively low-budget piston single operation for goodness sakes, it's not like we're talking about multi-million dollar turbine aircraft.
I disagree and the reasoning that I gave above outlines how I would do that flying without compensation, and I wouldn't be doing it out of desperation. I can certainly see similar circumstances applying for someone that isn't in my current position as well.
From my perspective as a professional, experienced pilot, your questions come with preconceived notions that are not necessarily true. For example you address the question to NJA_Capt (and indirectly to me and others in similar positions) by saying: "Or on your days off, are you so itching to go get qualified for another job that you'd fly around for free, just happy to be there?" Hmmmph.
YMMV.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
No. I thank him for his plane and generous offer, and go fly it. ( It can be a very good asset if you don't let your ego get in the way.)
Would I have 19 years ago as a CFI? No (I'm still current CFI/IA/MEI)
Would I have as a former Chief FI of a moderate sized flight school? No
No. But I have something called integrity. It has nothing to do with flying for free. The ONLY person deserving payment for his time is the CFI that did the OP's checkout.
Using your logic, if I came to your FBO and asked for a checkout, I should charge the FBO $1000/day (my rate) for my time. :rotfl:
This was a checkout. Period. It was nothing like a corp sending their pilot to FSI. Students don't charge for their time. The OP was a student.
Honestly, if I loaned one of you guys my plane to get yourself checked out, and then you charged me an hourly rate
, I'd turn around an send you a bill for the time on my plane. Then you wouldn't see me or my plane again. You get paid for your time after you are qualified, not before.Frankly. It comes off as desperate (for payment)
bdhill1979
Gone West
basically what Steve said
I don't consider myself to be experienced by any metric, but I have been in my job for more than two years now. It is not my only source of income though, and I have flown a few airplanes for people almost exactly like what was outlined by the OP.
I think too many people are screaming the "I won't work for free" mantra without thoroughly considering the Pros/Cons and seeing that you really are not working for free if you consider the long term payback.
The insurance checkout I did without charging for my time "cost" me half a day. That morning I worked with two students from 0600 to 1300, billing 6 hours. I did the checkout in the afternoon, a time which I would have been sitting at home anyway, taking a total of 4 hours 1.6 flying the plane, the majority of the rest of the time BSing with the instructor I was checking out with. That particular arrangement ended up making me about an extra $8000 in 2008, and about $5000 in 2009.
Was I really "working"? I didn't feel like I was.
Flying an airplane that you have 0 time in, are not checked out in, not on the insurance for, with an instructor, no passengers or property onboard, somebody else footing the bill, etc..........doesn't feel like work to me.
You may be logging PIC, but you sure as hell are not Acting PIC.
If the owner wants to pay you for that, and that is arranged up front, do it, I have. But thinking you are owed it, just because you "Won't work for free", when the owner is not aware of it......just bad form.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
Ding, Ding, Ding. No more calls. We have a winner.
jrh
Well-Known Member
What you're saying proves my point. You *are* being compensated. Those 5 conditions might as well be compensation. Especially #5, where you say you need to be paid enough to be worth your while. All you're doing is rearranging where/when the compensation comes to you.
What if I said I'd do the checkout for free if my pay was doubled for the first 10 hours I flew for him? Or how about requesting a bonus worth 10 hours of flight pay after the first year of work? Would that be more socially acceptable? Financially speaking, it's all the same. It's just shuffling around money.
Whether the checkout is done for free or not does not matter. Being clear about expectations is what is important.
I completely agree. I've talked in other threads about how every job must be looked at as a "package deal" of work versus reward. It's a lot more complicated than mere hourly pay rates.
However, I can't help but notice how your words could be applied to almost any PFT scheme.
"But, but, but...you'll get a bunch of cross country time!"
"But, but, but...you'll get a bunch of twin time!"
"But, but, but...you'll get a bunch of turbine time!"
The cycle never ends.
I agree completely. As I've said all along, the key is for both parties to be on the same page.
My main concern with all of this is that some people seemed to be dogging on the OP for not doing the checkout for free. Some people acted as though the OP should have happily hopped in for free no matter what.
My point is that the OP was not out of line in wanting to be compensated for his time. He wasn't being unreasonable. He wasn't looking a gift horse in the mouth.
I would have done the same. I just would have done it with better communication from the start.
bdhill1979
Gone West
I would say that time in the logbook can never be looked at as true compensation, I have never considered it to be. I am only considering the long term monetary compensation, and the insurance checkout that allows me to receive further monetary compensation in other aircraft of the same type. Either way its all about money from my point of view, just depends on whether I want it now and possibly irritating the check writer, or give a little now to get a long term money making opportunity.
If I came across as harping on "Not doing it for free" that was not my intent, I have been paid for more of these than the one I did for free. Just that expecting payment for something that is debatable as to being work at all without the check writer being aware of the expectation for payment as being foolish, and frankly a bit arrogant. That was more directed at the "Never work for free" crowd.
The airline pilot doing a pre-flight is not being paid for that time
The corporate guy piloting the LAZY-Boy in the FBO lounge waiting for his passengers may not be paid for that time (depending on his deal)
The flight instructor that spends 16 hours "at work" and only gets to bill for 7 of those hours
My point is that everybody works for free to one extent or another, it is just the reality of the working world. We either accept it and work within that reality, or we try to bill the unemployment office for the time we spent standing in line