bdhill1979
Gone West
Except he doesn't have a job, the "job" did not require him to be trained, and he is not required to be in that cockpit.
When do you become a corporate pilot?
- Thread starter NewPilot1
- Start date
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
Here is the issue though. In ANY business you have to give a little to get a little. By nickel and diming people your going to lose business. Bottom line he was doing him a favor by letting him fly his comanche. At least in his mind. If he was expecting to get paid for the training in that guys aircraft he should have made the clear up front. Assumptions are the killer in business. I run a small warehouse for chain of grocery stores and part of the way I get new business is by cutting people breaks. Giving them a discount for there business. Say a credit to their account of .5% for their total orders. Or if we are trying to pull business froma competitor we offer deals where say for the first month we acutally lose money because in the long run we will make it by getting that contract. If I nickel and dimed everyone we supplied than we would go out of business real fast. Its the same in aviation. If someone offers to let you fly their commanche for them, a airplane they can obviously fly themselves, you dont nickel and dime them for the training. You eat the cost of training so you can benefit from the reward of getting paid to fly his employees and him when you are properly trained to do so. Many contract pilot have to pay for their own type ratings in the aircraft they fly and in this case it is no different. You very well may have just lost what could have been a valuable contract in the long run. Its a game of give alittle take alittle.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
Yes it did. See above
Required or not, his presence in the cockpit is desired by the owner, and thus he should be paid.
My car didn't need to be washed, but I paid the guy at the gas station to do it. I also could have done it myself.
bdhill1979
Gone West
Oh I read it, twice
I was more referencing the part where the "Employer" was not aware that he had hired an "Employee"; this:
the reason why I put "Job" in quotes
agreed, however the degree to which the presence was desired is what is at question here. It seems to me like the owner just thought he was letting his instructor get on the insurance, not hiring a full time employee.
Did the car wash guy decide he was your full time detailer? Did he hand you a bill for work you were not aware you were paying him for?
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
HUGE difference and no way equatable. Was I paid? Of course. I was also on the payroll before training began. He wasn't.
Did I bill the CEO or the Check Airman? Uh...no.
Did you (he) bill future employers for your HP endorsement? High Altitude? MEI? IA? ATP? He was "given" an insurance checkout. It wasn't a furthering of education/training.
Professional is also knowing what to bill and what not to. Billing someone $ when they just gave you $,$$$ for FREE is a bad decision.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
Sounds like the owner had every intention of it being a pretty steady thing. He's not collecting a salary, he's collecting a contract pilot rate.
Again, the owner told the OP he intended for him to fly as a "safety pilot" when the owner is in the left seat, and as the PIC when flying company employees. He is a CFII. Would the guy have contracted him if he wasn't a CFII? If not, then he should be paid in the capacity of a CFII, as it seems that was the purpose of having him aboard. If he works for a flight school, then he should be paid at his normal hourly rate as to not conflict with the interest of the flight school. If he works for himself, he sets the rate as he sees fit.
No. And the OP didn't put himself on the aircraft owner's payroll either. He did work, he charged him for work done. Basic contracting.
bdhill1979
Gone West
except in "Basic contracting" the terms are agreed to and understood by both parties, typically in the form of a contract.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
Did you get paid to sit through indoc?
Goonie
Never say die
NJA,
I agree with you.
When I got my first "corporate gig" flying a C414 all I hade was a ton of light twin time in PA-44's. I met the insurance requirements except I needed 10 hours M&M. The owner could have found someone with the M&M time but he liked me and knew me personally. I didn't charge him for my time getting the 10 hours, but he didn't charge me either. I ended up making some pretty good money with him, but more importantly I probably couldn't have got the "corporate pilot" job I am doing now without that experience.
I agree with you.
When I got my first "corporate gig" flying a C414 all I hade was a ton of light twin time in PA-44's. I met the insurance requirements except I needed 10 hours M&M. The owner could have found someone with the M&M time but he liked me and knew me personally. I didn't charge him for my time getting the 10 hours, but he didn't charge me either. I ended up making some pretty good money with him, but more importantly I probably couldn't have got the "corporate pilot" job I am doing now without that experience.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
except in "Basic contracting" the terms are agreed to and understood by both parties, typically in the form of a contract.
The one writing the paycheck should have the most interest in drafting a legal contract.
The OP would also have an interest in a contract to ensure payment for services. In this case, had the owner refused to write a check, the OP would have taken his 10 hours and the lesson learned and moved on.
Since there was no contract in place, the owner could have also legally refused payment. Instead, he chose to do the amicable thing and pay up. Had he not, there was nothing the OP could have done, since there was no breach of (a non-existent) contract
bdhill1979
Gone West
which is precisely my point, the OP ASSUMED he had a corporate job, and thus should be compensated for time "on the clock". However there was no agreement in place and I think it is pretty clear the owner did not consider the arrangement to be an employer/employee relationship. So even though the OP was paid for his time, I think the owner feels that he got taken advantage of and this "opportunity" could be gone.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
TF,
I think you are missing the larger point. He was "paid." He was given an airplane, free of charge, to get his 10 hours in. The owner would have been fully within his rights to charge an hourly rate for the use of HIS aircraft for this checkout. He could have also found pilot that already met the insurance requirements. The value of the "gift" given (free plane) far exceeds the the amount of time he put in for the checkout. He also did not "perform a service" for the owner, in which to charge.
I think you are missing the larger point. He was "paid." He was given an airplane, free of charge, to get his 10 hours in. The owner would have been fully within his rights to charge an hourly rate for the use of HIS aircraft for this checkout. He could have also found pilot that already met the insurance requirements. The value of the "gift" given (free plane) far exceeds the the amount of time he put in for the checkout. He also did not "perform a service" for the owner, in which to charge.
CK
Well-Known Member
Contract pilots normally pay for their own training, getting it for free would be a huge plus as a contract pilot, let alone getting paid for it.
Alex.
Patrick
Well-Known Member
The OP is clearly operating as a contract pilot. I am in the same boat. There is a huge difference between being on the payroll and being a contractor (in any line of work).
To the OP, I'll agree with those that say he showed poor form in charging the owner for his time to meet insurance requirements, for two reasons. A) The owner could have just found someone who already met the mins, and not had to even pay the expenses of the airplane for that time period to get him insurable, nevermind paying him and the CFI. B) The value in that section of the equation is the free time and training he would have received. Remember, he is not on payroll, he is a contractor.
The other big mistake the OP has made is relying on assumptions, not negotiated terms laid out in a contract. Assumptions kill business deals everyday. Never assume anything, and always get things in writing.
The real world lesson here, is that there is often a very fine line that separates being paid for a service (especially a highly skilled one) with not charging a client for the purpose of networking for future opportunity. Small example from a few days ago: A good friend of mine runs a very high end car detailing operation. He recently got a real PITA client through a random referral. They talked about rates, and he told him that "a full details starts around $250. The key word there was "start." After mentioning that, the owner of the car asked for a few extra things, and my friend quoted him $300 for the job. Well, he did the job, the owner was ecstatic with the results, and he left him a check. He didn't look at the check until later, but then when he did, realized the check was for $250. The owner actually called him the next day, and said "hey you know, I think I shorted you a little bit on your bill." He said "well, it should have been $300, but don't worry about, I know I'll see you again." (He's VERY confident in his work, and has every right to be) Well, the owner said "I'm happy to send you a check for the difference, or I'll send you at least 10 referrals, which would you prefer?" I think the answer is obvious, and I have been in exactly the same position before.
To the OP, I'll agree with those that say he showed poor form in charging the owner for his time to meet insurance requirements, for two reasons. A) The owner could have just found someone who already met the mins, and not had to even pay the expenses of the airplane for that time period to get him insurable, nevermind paying him and the CFI. B) The value in that section of the equation is the free time and training he would have received. Remember, he is not on payroll, he is a contractor.
The other big mistake the OP has made is relying on assumptions, not negotiated terms laid out in a contract. Assumptions kill business deals everyday. Never assume anything, and always get things in writing.
The real world lesson here, is that there is often a very fine line that separates being paid for a service (especially a highly skilled one) with not charging a client for the purpose of networking for future opportunity. Small example from a few days ago: A good friend of mine runs a very high end car detailing operation. He recently got a real PITA client through a random referral. They talked about rates, and he told him that "a full details starts around $250. The key word there was "start." After mentioning that, the owner of the car asked for a few extra things, and my friend quoted him $300 for the job. Well, he did the job, the owner was ecstatic with the results, and he left him a check. He didn't look at the check until later, but then when he did, realized the check was for $250. The owner actually called him the next day, and said "hey you know, I think I shorted you a little bit on your bill." He said "well, it should have been $300, but don't worry about, I know I'll see you again." (He's VERY confident in his work, and has every right to be) Well, the owner said "I'm happy to send you a check for the difference, or I'll send you at least 10 referrals, which would you prefer?" I think the answer is obvious, and I have been in exactly the same position before.
jrh
Well-Known Member
I think this can go either way. Nothing wrong with getting paid, nothing wrong with doing it for free.
Personally, there's no way I'd fly around in a plane for 10 hours without getting paid. I don't care if it's a Commanche or a King Air. That's not because I have some strong belief that I must get paid for every hour I fly--it's because I've got better things to do with my time than fly. I'm not interested in working for free at any level. I value my personal time too much. If an owner asked me to do the checkout for free, I'd respectfully point him towards another pilot who might be interested in the job.
Now, that's coming from my perspective as an employed pilot with a stable income and as much work as I can handle. I'm not out there scrapping for every opportunity I can get.
If somebody were to do those 10 hours for free, I wouldn't hold it against them. I don't consider it "lowering the bar" or any such thing. As long as they're not actively trying to undercut other pilots, it's ok in my book.
As has been said, the key is communication. The whole arrangement should have been discussed before any flying began. Live and learn, better luck next time.
Personally, there's no way I'd fly around in a plane for 10 hours without getting paid. I don't care if it's a Commanche or a King Air. That's not because I have some strong belief that I must get paid for every hour I fly--it's because I've got better things to do with my time than fly. I'm not interested in working for free at any level. I value my personal time too much. If an owner asked me to do the checkout for free, I'd respectfully point him towards another pilot who might be interested in the job.
Now, that's coming from my perspective as an employed pilot with a stable income and as much work as I can handle. I'm not out there scrapping for every opportunity I can get.
If somebody were to do those 10 hours for free, I wouldn't hold it against them. I don't consider it "lowering the bar" or any such thing. As long as they're not actively trying to undercut other pilots, it's ok in my book.
As has been said, the key is communication. The whole arrangement should have been discussed before any flying began. Live and learn, better luck next time.
Nihon_Ni
Well-Known Member
In my own case, I work as a CFI at a flying club. In order to be a contractor there, I had to join the club and get checked out in the aircraft and the local area. It amounted to three fights and a simulator, for a total of about 5 hrs dual and the same amount of ground. I didn't get paid for this time, but neither was I charged for the use of the airplane and the CFI like every other club member is, since I was a perspective CFI. Since getting hired, I have had 2 standardization flights per year, about 1.5 hrs each; and again, I neither was paid for them nor was I charged for them. Once I was checked out and began working, I billed each student for the time I spent with them, generally from hello to goodbye. I have earned thousands of dollars during the time I've been contracted at my school, and it would've been foolish t refuse to go on the first three flights unless I was paid for them. (At my previous job, also a military flying club, we had the same checkout and standardization requirements, but the CFIs had to rent the airplane to fly them.) In my case, these jobs demanded I be a current club member before I could be contracted. I don't offer instruction for free, but I consider getting/staying checked out as overhead required to be a contract CFI.
To the OP, you may want to go back to the owner and try to clear up the misunderstandings you two have. The variety of opinions expressed here certainly indicate the owner could have had a different assumption than you had. If he is of the opinion that he was offering you a good deal instead of looking for someone who meets his insurance requirements, he may well be mad enough to have sworn to "never work with that guy again." A little humility on your part could go a long ways toward smoothing out the ruffled feathers and gaining future employment with this gentleman. You may want to consider giving him his money back, or offering him 10 hrs of credit toward future work. Since he already paid you, I doubt he'd take it back, but the gesture will be priceless.
If you've ever read The Savvy Flight Instructor, this is what he means when he talks about the value of your reputation. If you haven't read it, go get it!
To the OP, you may want to go back to the owner and try to clear up the misunderstandings you two have. The variety of opinions expressed here certainly indicate the owner could have had a different assumption than you had. If he is of the opinion that he was offering you a good deal instead of looking for someone who meets his insurance requirements, he may well be mad enough to have sworn to "never work with that guy again." A little humility on your part could go a long ways toward smoothing out the ruffled feathers and gaining future employment with this gentleman. You may want to consider giving him his money back, or offering him 10 hrs of credit toward future work. Since he already paid you, I doubt he'd take it back, but the gesture will be priceless.
If you've ever read The Savvy Flight Instructor, this is what he means when he talks about the value of your reputation. If you haven't read it, go get it!
So when I go to recurrent in November, which the owner is paying for, I shouldn't be charging my daily rate to sit in a hotel/sim while passing my .297? ...because I'm not providing a service to the owner by getting training. He's providing it to me. Hell, I should be paying CAE for the training too!
I'm a contract pilot, not an employee. I didn't pay for my "initial" and I charged for every day (plus per diem) while I was at FSI.
-mini
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
I was referring to those times when someone invites you to ride right seat when no one ever really does do it. If they are advertising, I agree, it should include monetary compensation.
CK
Well-Known Member
Right. By saying "getting (training) for free would be a huge plus as a contract pilot, let alone getting paid for it", I really meant, "if the company you contract for is willing to pay you while in training you should say 'screw you I'll pay you for the training." Thank you for clearing that up mini.
Alex.