When do you become a corporate pilot?

[NewPilot1]

Hello all. I am new to this site and I'm not sure where to post this, but I'm sure this topic has been hashed out many times over.

I am a CFII with a muti/comm rating. I've been asked to fly a high performance Piper Comanche. I emailed the owner with my pay requirements to include expenses. While he never responded to the email, we have talked about other points within the email, so I know he read it. With just over 500 hours in my logbook, the insurance company wanted 10 hours dual in his aircraft. When the owner is flying, I'm there as a safety pilot because he is older. However, the opportunity exists to fly without the owner flying company employees. Sounds corporate to me. Upon completion of the training, I sent an invoice for the amount I requested in the email and he paid it. Later I found out, although he paid the bill, he was not pleased that I charged him for my time during training and he still had to pay for the expense of the airplane, ie fuel. He thought he was doing me a favor by checking me out in his aircraft and helping to build my time. He didn't think I'd charge him until after we started flying together. I explained that I considered it to be a corporate pilot position and training is to be paid by the owner. Here it comes, ready, he said, "Its only a Comanche not a Citation."

The question is - at what point in our careers can we call ourselves corporate pilots? Is it only when we're flying jets? How about after we reach a certain total time?

 

[bdhill1979]

Hello all. I am new to this site and I'm not sure where to post this, but I'm sure this topic has been hashed out many times over.

I am a CFII with a muti/comm rating. I've been asked to fly a high performance Piper Comanche. I emailed the owner with my pay requirements to include expenses. While he never responded to the email, we have talked about other points within the email, so I know he read it. With just over 500 hours in my logbook, the insurance company wanted 10 hours dual in his aircraft. When the owner is flying, I'm there as a safety pilot because he is older. However, the opportunity exists to fly without the owner flying company employees. Sounds corporate to me. Upon completion of the training, I sent an invoice for the amount I requested in the email and he paid it. Later I found out, although he paid the bill, he was not pleased that I charged him for my time during training and he still had to pay for the expense of the airplane, ie fuel. He thought he was doing me a favor by checking me out in his aircraft and helping to build my time. He didn't think I'd charge him until after we started flying together. I explained that I considered it to be a corporate pilot position and training is to be paid by the owner. Here it comes, ready, he said, "Its only a Comanche not a Citation."

The question is - at what point in our careers can we call ourselves corporate pilots? Is it only when we're flying jets? How about after we reach a certain total time?

The airframe is irrelevant.

You are a "Corporate Pilot" when you are on the corporation payroll with the job description of "Pilot". Sounds like you are making some huge assumptions about this deal, and are not at all on the same page as the owner.

 

[Murdoughnut]

My wife is an attorney and I sometimes give her a ride down to Miami for court. Does that make me a corporate pilot?

 

[Inverted25]

You should ask him how he sees this deal working out. Communication is the key. If you perceive this to be something that its not he may end up just telling you to bug off. He might just look at this as a nice gesture to help you build time and not a serious job.

EDIT: On a legal side you need to get a written contract stating your pay and bennies if any and signed by the owner. This will insure there wont come a day when you send him a invoice and he says you were just coming along for a ride not for comepensation.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Since the insurance requires dual time for you to fly the airplane, and he is not a CFI, why were you flying as a safety pilot?

 

[TheresaPilot]

Since the insurance requires dual time for you to fly the airplane, and he is not a CFI, why were you flying as a safety pilot?

And... I was wondering this:

I'm there as a safety pilot because he is older.

Why does age have anything to do with it??

 

[falconvalley]

Hello all. I am new to this site and I'm not sure where to post this, but I'm sure this topic has been hashed out many times over.

I am a CFII with a muti/comm rating. I've been asked to fly a high performance Piper Comanche. I emailed the owner with my pay requirements to include expenses. While he never responded to the email, we have talked about other points within the email, so I know he read it. With just over 500 hours in my logbook, the insurance company wanted 10 hours dual in his aircraft. When the owner is flying, I'm there as a safety pilot because he is older. However, the opportunity exists to fly without the owner flying company employees. Sounds corporate to me. Upon completion of the training, I sent an invoice for the amount I requested in the email and he paid it. Later I found out, although he paid the bill, he was not pleased that I charged him for my time during training and he still had to pay for the expense of the airplane, ie fuel. He thought he was doing me a favor by checking me out in his aircraft and helping to build my time. He didn't think I'd charge him until after we started flying together. I explained that I considered it to be a corporate pilot position and training is to be paid by the owner. Here it comes, ready, he said, "Its only a Comanche not a Citation."

The question is - at what point in our careers can we call ourselves corporate pilots? Is it only when we're flying jets? How about after we reach a certain total time?

Sounds like he thinks that you two helping each other out is good enough. Once you start flying people that have a need to go from point A to point B, though, you should become an employee. His assertion that "It's only a Comanche not a Citation" is his way of minimizing the deal to make it sound innocent. Don't sell yourself short. Helping a fellow pilot out is one thing, but don't find yourself doing him favors.

 

[NewPilot1]

And... I was wondering this:



Why does age have anything to do with it??

Age has nothing to do with flying. However, as a pilot in his mid to late 70's, he realizes that his skills are not a sharp as they once were. I used the term safety pilot in a broad sense of the word.

 

[NewPilot1]

Since the insurance requires dual time for you to fly the airplane, and he is not a CFI, why were you flying as a safety pilot?

He is not a CFI. I recieved the dual training in his aircraft from another qualifed CFII.

 

[NewPilot1]

You should ask him how he sees this deal working out. Communication is the key. If you perceive this to be something that its not he may end up just telling you to bug off. He might just look at this as a nice gesture to help you build time and not a serious job.

EDIT: On a legal side you need to get a written contract stating your pay and bennies if any and signed by the owner. This will insure there wont come a day when you send him a invoice and he says you were just coming along for a ride not for comepensation.

Maybe I have read to much into it and should reevaluate what he's asking of me. However, the bottom line is payment for services rendered. I don't work for free.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

He is not a CFI. I recieved the dual training in his aircraft from another qualifed CFII.

So are you giving him instruction? I don't see what your "end" of this deal is. If he doesn't feel comfortable flying by himself, he should pay you. To use his analogy, it is a Comanche, not a Citation. In the grand scheme of things, 10 hours in a retractable single isn't really worth a whole lot to you.

 

[Douglas]

Yeah don't train or work for free, I think you did the right thing.
For some reason there seems to be a lot of confusion about your post.

It's 91, hours and plane don't make corporate. Like BDHill said, you need to be considered an employee. Until then I would consider yourself as a contract pilot.

 

[Goldmember]

Get paid for what you do. It would be a huge benefit to my career to get right seat Gulfstream time and then move to the left seat. So should I do it for free because it helps my career? No way, somebody else could be getting paid for that job. This is why we all get paid like crap anyway. Now this example is a stretch but you have to draw a line and say hey, I am a professional and this is what I do. Personally, I won't consider working for a company that will not pay for my housing and pay a minimum salary while in training. Every other line of work does this, we should not expect less.

P.S. A comanche will kill you just as easy as a citation will...Probably easier

 

[BrewMaster]

C'mon man, you spent thousands upon thousands of dollars to become a pilot. Why should you get paid for it?

 

[Zero1Niner]

Sounds like you are making some huge assumptions about this deal, and are not at all on the same page as the owner.

I think BDHill nailed it. Assumptions always wreck the deal. Clarify everything. Even thought its often horribly uncomfortable, especially with an 'avoider' (you know, the guys that intentionally speak in greyscale so they can complain or renegotiate after the fact).

Nothing wrong at all with saying, 'so old geeser, are you in agreement with the day rate that I sent to you in my email? Yes?..fantastic. And just so I am clear, that daily rate will include the time I spend training in the airplane as well, agreed?'

Then you can watch and listen for the response he gives, and you will quickly know where you/he stand, and if your on the same page. If he balks, you can renegotiate if necessary, or walk.

 

[bdhill1979]

I think BDHill nailed it. Assumptions always wreck the deal. Clarify everything. Even thought its often horribly uncomfortable, especially with an 'avoider' (you know, the guys that intentionally speak in greyscale so they can complain or renegotiate after the fact).

Nothing wrong at all with saying, 'so old geeser, are you in agreement with the day rate that I sent to you in my email? Yes?..fantastic. And just so I am clear, that daily rate will include the time I spend training in the airplane as well, agreed?'

Then you can watch and listen for the response he gives, and you will quickly know where you/he stand, and if your on the same page. If he balks, you can renegotiate if necessary, or walk.

Absolutely, if you are at all unsure of the situation it needs to be clarified. The day my boss hired me it was:

"Hey I just bought a plane, can you fly it for me? Here are the keys to the plane, the keys to the hangar, go to payroll and fill out a W2, go fly with the old owner then call me when you feel comfortable in it, email in your hours every sunday night, paychecks are cut every monday"

not much ambiguity

 

[falconvalley]

Well, some people feel that just making connections and sitting in a seat is valuable enough. It is...to a point. If you feel it's a waste of time to not be paid for it, then it is. Take each his or her own. An acquaintance of mine was flabbergasted that I wouldn't get off the couch to fly the right seat of a King Air 200 for $150 a day. I said "Do you know how much that is after taxes when you're self employed?? That guy needs to pay right seaters a little more..." My acquaintance commented that his son better fly for free to make connections, when he gets out of school. IMO, there's a line though. I'm not going to sit somewhere and "build time" for free. Nor am I going to fly for free if someone calls me and asks "can you do me a favor? " If there's a seat that would otherwise be empty, that might be different, depending on how bad I need to network.

 

[minitour]

If there's a seat that would otherwise be empty, that might be different, depending on how bad I need to network.

If there's a seat that would be empty, but they're calling a professional pilot to fill it anyway, then you need to be paid. Period. Whether you're a required crewmember by regulation or if it's just the insurance or customer requesting a 2nd pilot they need you there or they wouldn't be calling.

-mini

 

[NJA_Capt]

Respectfully, I'd say you have quite a ways to go, and may well have stepped in the poop this time. A safe definition of a corp pilot is when a pilot is under the direct employment of a person or company, and earning enough to be self supportive. What you described is more like basic pilot service.

I am a CFII with a muti/comm rating. I've been asked to fly a high performance Piper Comanche.

Great potential...so far

I emailed the owner with my pay requirements to include expenses....the insurance company wanted 10 hours dual in his aircraft. Upon completion of the training, I sent an invoice for the amount I requested in the email and he paid it.

The man GAVE you his airplane to fly for 10 hours to meet the insurance, and you charged him?? Extreme bad form in my opinion. You are lucky he paid you and didn't give you a bill for 10 hours on the airframe and the insurance premium for adding you to his policy (which I hope he did). Your instructor "could" bill the owner for his dual expense checking you out, or you could just pay it yourself as a cost of doing business. You should have paid for the gas too.

He thought he was doing me a favor by checking me out in his aircraft and helping to build my time.

He was.

He didn't think I'd charge him until after we started flying together.

Honest expectation.

I explained that I considered it to be a corporate pilot position and training is to be paid by the owner.

Bad assumption.

The question is - at what point in our careers can we call ourselves corporate pilots? Is it only when we're flying jets? How about after we reach a certain total time?

Not limited to jets or certain total times. I have operated like you described as an instructor and as a Flight Dept Manager. Treating people and their aircraft with respect and decorum go a long way. I was in your shoes a number of years ago and was fortunate to have been given access to a number of airplanes to use as I wished (when the owner wasn't using it). I never gave my time away and I never nickle-and-dimed them. I was added to their insurance (which they paid) and I paid for the gas that I used. I wish I had those opportunities now.

 

[jhugz]

The man GAVE you his airplane to fly for 10 hours to meet the insurance, and you charged him?? Extreme bad form in my opinion. You are lucky he paid you and didn't give you a bill for 10 hours on the airframe and the insurance premium for adding you to his policy (which I hope he did). Your instructor "could" bill the owner for his dual expense checking you out, or you could just pay it yourself as a cost of doing business. You should have paid for the gas too.

Did you get payed during upgrade and initial training at NJA? Did you have to cover the cost of the sim?

He is a professional pilot doing his job. If his job requires training he should be payed for it.