What would you change about phraseology?
- Thread starter Rosstafari
- Start date
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Now there's an awful idea. I've heard enough transmissions to know that "student pilot" gets overdone. The idea id for a student on a cross country to learn ATC communications and have "student pilot" as a backup just in case.
That blog idea must have come from the CFI whose student I once heard say "student pilot" after every transmission. I men EVERY transmission.
"Bigtown Approach. Skyhawk 1234X request flight following to Littleville. Student Pilot."
"Skyhawk 34X, Bigtown Approach. Squawk 5252.
"5252. Skyhawk 34X Student Pilot."
"Skyhawk 34X. Advise of altitude changes."
"34X will advise of altitude changes. Student Pilot."
and on and on and on
So the blog poster wants to make the crutch permanent?
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Just to counter those guys on freq, I'm gonna start checking in with "XXXX level 5000, A-T-P." Give a little wink at the end only the FO will see.
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
Yeah I noticed that afterwards, it would help a little except when you're talking about M or N, B or D, F or S, and those kinds of letters... it always sounds fine in your head but try it with a crappy radio and any multitude of other factors and it doesn't work as well.
That's why we use the phonetic alphabet in the first place, is it not?
There's a controller at LOU that says tree and fife every single time. I admire his standardization but I still can't bring myself to say it. I always do niner unless I just forget too.
I kind of like the idea of spelling out fixes though, maybe just on the initial reference to it. Flying last week I was vectored to one called UUKAY (U.K.). Obviously you should have charts and know where it's at but still, it seems like it'd make things a little quicker if I just knew what the plug in. Same for TUBBE (tubby). I can see where people could get confused over spelling.
Sure, you should...but I can't know where every fix in America, Canada and Latin America is in both the high and low altitude route structures in addition to every star/sid.
I have a general idea of where the fixes are on my route, because I've "become familiar" with my route. But when I get "hey go to this random fix and join this other arrival because of whatever reason", it either involves 2 more radio transmissions (asking for either a heading until we get it plugged in or a phonetic spelling and then a reply) or involves me plowing along straight ahead until I can pull the other STAR, find the fix, plug it in and hit enter.
Seems like we can just save time and radio transmissions by spelling them out phonetically to begin with.
-mini
Muff3n
Well-Known Member
I am fine if at the last transmision before a handoff with saying "Good Day" or something courteous but short.
One day I was flying and on a handoff some guy was like " Going to tower on 119.7, you did an excellent job, thanks for the help, have a good day, cya"
Saying an entire sentence trying to be courteous is a waste of air time.
One day I was flying and on a handoff some guy was like " Going to tower on 119.7, you did an excellent job, thanks for the help, have a good day, cya"
Saying an entire sentence trying to be courteous is a waste of air time.
Douglas
Old School KSUX
"Cleared direct Romeo Uniform November Tango Sierra" vs "Cleared direct runts"
Same with navaids.
"Cleared direct Sierra Bravo Juliet" vs "Cleared direct Solberg"
Give me the phonetics so I can just type it in real quick. If you give me some funky fix, I either have to already have it in the box (easy), find it on the nav log (a little more difficult) or pull out the enroute chart (ugh...seriously?
That's my little peeve.
-mini
See I thought it was standard for ATC to read you the new intersection phonetically, but like pilots, get lazy.
I can't stand "advise when ready to copy route change", then "cleared, via direct mooky, Baggs...etc."
I don't know a mooky and I didn't know baggs has a second g.
Mike, oscar oscar kilo yankee. :beer:
That creates extra transmissions.
"N123 Cleared present position direct CHAFF"
"N123 Cleared direct CHAFF, what's the phonetic for that?"
"That's Charlie Hotel Alpha Foxtrot Foxtrot"
"Okay, Charlie Hotel Alpha Foxtrot Foxtrot, N123. Thanks."
vs.
"N123 cleared present position direct Charlie Hotel Alpha Foxtrot Foxtrot"
"N123 cleared direct to Charlie Hotel Alpha Foxtrot Foxtrot."
...which takes longer?
-mini
Well, if we make another assumption the ratio changes. I would submit that at least 95+% of the time the pilot knows the fix or else it is already on their flight plan so they don't require the phonetic spelling. In that case it is only 1 time out of 20 (or less) that the extra transmissions are required, thus an overall reduction in air time to leave off the phonetic on the initial calls.
In practice what I tend to notice is that ATC doesn't give the phonetic on the initial call unless the fix is NOT on my original flight plan. That gives the best of both worlds to my way of thinking.
Probably true. I'm sure if our plane had an FMS with airways, this would be less of an issue for me, if any at all.
The problem we get a lot is when loading in the airways, we only put in the fixes where the airway turns, so when we get cleared to a fix "on" the airway, we know it's out there from review...but I'll be damned if I can remember spellings like that 3 hours later. I have a hard enough time remembering the last assigned frequency and it's in the standby!!! :rotfl:
Damn 2001 technology. :laff:
-mini
Cannon
New Member
That is the same logic as the folks who never use their turn signals while driving. I get by fine without those things.
msmspilot
Well-Known Member
I saw "tree." After having EVERY SINGLE CONTROLLER AND FSS SPECIALIST get your tail number wrong, you learn to use the standard phraseology so they get it right. Sometimes.
The airplane I spend most of my time in is Nxx23X. If you call them up with 23X, 99% of the time they reply with 32X. It doesn't seem to matter how much you enunciate, slow down, etc. On the other hand, if you say two - tree - X-ray, they seem to get it right.
Don't know.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Quiet down.
pilotbry
Well-Known Member
I'm far less bugged by "with you"s and "thank you"s that I am by the guy that puts 15 "Uhhhh"s in a call making it 3 times as long as it should be. Know what you want to say before you key the mic!!!!
That said - I got the impression the OP was asking about what we would like to see changed in "Official" phraseology". I don't get the "tree" and Fife" thing. Niner is there to distinguish from five but what would you confuse three and five with?
RE: fixes - When they give me a fix that was not on my filed plan and I understood it enough to repeat it back, I hit "nearest waypoint" on the GPS and I can usually find it in the list if it's not too far away. Otherwise i say "request phonetic on the (the fix)".
That said - I got the impression the OP was asking about what we would like to see changed in "Official" phraseology". I don't get the "tree" and Fife" thing. Niner is there to distinguish from five but what would you confuse three and five with?
RE: fixes - When they give me a fix that was not on my filed plan and I understood it enough to repeat it back, I hit "nearest waypoint" on the GPS and I can usually find it in the list if it's not too far away. Otherwise i say "request phonetic on the (the fix)".