What needs to happen to re-open contract negotiations?

[K-Dog]

"Why do you all continue to try to argue Philip or any of his comments? Haven't you learned by now he won't stop.

Just smile and nod."


Yes, you are right. It is hard to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

 

[Philip]

"Why do you all continue to try to argue Philip or any of his comments? Haven't you learned by now he won't stop.

Just smile and nod."


Yes, you are right. It is hard to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

says the guy that can't even quote properly.

 

[K-Dog]

says the guy that can't even quote properly.

Since when are quotation marks not a proper way to quote?

Also, if you could use an argument more intelligent than "if you say so" you may get more respect for your opinion. However, with a 4th grade level argument such as that, I doubt anyone will pay any serious attention to your point of view.

 

[Philip]

Since when are quotation marks not a proper way to quote?

Also, if you could use an argument more intelligent than "if you say so" you may get more respect for your opinion. However, with a 4th grade level argument such as that, I doubt anyone will pay any serious attention to your point of view.

What is there to argue, you clearly know me and know my specific finances well enough to tell me how I should manage them, so what's the point?
Yes, I could post the guidelines for a standard home loan (26 to 28% of gross) that your example is outside of, but why should I bother when you're more interested in putting words in my mouth and telling me what I can and can't do, calling me childish while making personal attacks?

 

[BoomerSooner77]

I forgot, you can't argue with the know-it-alls around here.
thank god most of you aren't going to the same facility I am.

Yes, philip. You're right.

 

[BoomerSooner77]

What is there to argue, you clearly know me and know my specific finances well enough to tell me how I should manage them, so what's the point?
Yes, I could post the guidelines for a standard home loan (26 to 28% of gross) that your example is outside of, but why should I bother when you're more interested in putting words in my mouth and telling me what I can and can't do, calling me childish while making personal attacks?

Yes, Philip. You're right.

 

[Philip]

Yes, philip. You're right.

Thank god, I so desperately crave your approval.

actually I just find it humerous that his whole argument is based on something I never even said.

 

[bigdil511]

Do any of you really know what you are talking about? First of all have if you are single making 90K please complain somewhere else. If you are married with no children you can live damn well as well on your salary alone, who has a $1500 mortgage? Geez cheap housing where you are from, lets put it this way if you make 90k a year 1500 for your mortgage is freggin chump change. Right now me and my wife combined make 90K a year and my mortgage is $2400 and we make the bills so you put it together, plus I have 2 kids. And my house is a 3 bedroom ranch, (yes I know its freggin expensive but thats why I am out of long island and moving with this job). Now let me put it to you like this, I will be at a level 12 facility so as a CPC I should make 90k+, now my wife is a nurse can make 30K part time, sounds like a good freggin deal to me, plus living expenses are less houses cost less. Someone said 200K for a small house? ROFLMAO I wish I could have paid that little for my ####box, mine cost 320K.

 

[BoomerSooner77]

Thank god, I so desperately crave your approval.

actually I just find it humerous that his whole argument is based on something I never even said.

I didn't give you approval... BUT...

Yes, Philip. You're right.

 

[Philip]

Do any of you really know what you are talking about? First of all have if you are single making 90K please complain somewhere else. If you are married with no children you can live damn well as well on your salary alone, who has a $1500 mortgage? Geez cheap housing where you are from, lets put it this way if you make 90k a year 1500 for your mortgage is freggin chump change. Right now me and my wife combined make 90K a year and my mortgage is $2400 and we make the bills so you put it together, plus I have 2 kids. And my house is a 3 bedroom ranch, (yes I know its freggin expensive but thats why I am out of long island and moving with this job). Now let me put it to you like this, I will be at a level 12 facility so as a CPC I should make 90k+, now my wife is a nurse can make 30K part time, sounds like a good freggin deal to me, plus living expenses are less houses cost less. Someone said 200K for a small house? ROFLMAO I wish I could have paid that little for my ####box, mine cost 320K.

wow, your life sucks way worse than mine.

I just got some good news. I'm way less cranky now.

 

[will]

I'm soooo glad I took time out of my very busy work day to read all these posts.

 

[Rooster]

To get this thread back on track, this was the full FAA offer that was rejected 3 months ago.

1) The agency will increase the AG, D1, D2, D3, and CPC pay bands by 5%, but no corresponding increase to the band maximum. In simple terms, the agency asks us to agree to a 25% reduction in the developmental and CPC pay as opposed to a 30% reduction.

2) The FAA - who called my last offer regressive, has deleted the 15% on-the-job-training (OJTI) differential contained in their 12-26-07 offer.

3) The FAA will increase pay bands by 1.67% for FY 2009 and FY 2010; FY 2011 will be decided by the agency. Since the vast majority of controllers employed are currently above the band maximums, this band increase will have little to no affect. And according to discussions we had with them over the past year, this is the average amount the Administrator intends to increase all FAA pay bands. And if we agreed, what’s to stop the Agency from reducing the pay bands by another 30% in January 2011?

4) Downgrades will be held in abeyance until the IWR's expire; at that time, the FAA can do whatever they want; they specifically will not negotiate what is required under law (49 USC 40122; 5 USC chapter 71) concerning classification, and all pay rules associated with upgrades and downgrades.

5) CIP will be paid to eligible BUE's at 80% of what was paid prior to IWR's. No back pay - even though management has been and continues to receive 100% CIP at these facilities. The amount available is $21M, which remains static throughout the terms of the IWR. This means the available amount diminishes with inflation and the amount paid to employees will actually decrease due to increasing numbers of BUE’s receiving it. Currently, just over 1100 FLM’s get $10.4M for their CIP. As of June 2008 the CIP MOU would have grown the CIP pool to $37.8M per year (excluding increases in FY 2009 on the CIP pool). 80% of that is $30.2M... so it appears they want to use 20% of your CIP pool to pay both controllers and managers CIP.

6) Removes restriction for receiving an OSI/SCI pay raise or bonus if an employee was decertified for performance during the year. Employees are still penalized from receiving OSI/SCI for being disciplined during the year. Based on the latest policy change by the FAA as identified in the GAM (government advisory memo), the FAA is advising managers that they should discipline controllers for performance errors as opposed to utilizing performance based correction techniques.

7) The FAA agrees to pay all BUE's above the band maximums 1.5% of their OSI/SCI awards (if any) in base pay for 2009, 2010, and 2011. The rest of the federal government gets the full Presidential increase, and all management personnel in the FAA get the full OSI/SCI in base pay. After 2011 the FAA does whatever they want.

8) The FAA offers an additional 1% of an employee’s OSI/SCI towards base pay for BUE's eligible to retire. After 2011, the FAA does whatever they want...

9) Agency agrees to pay CIC (controller in charge) premium of 10% while assigned those duties for BUE's assigned to ATC facility level 4-9.

10) The FAA says they will make available 80% of the annual leave earned in a year at a facility for bidding vacation leave. The remaining 20% of leave slots remain open for management to decide what to do.

12) The FAA states they will normally allow an employee who reports to work after being assigned over time to work the full 8 hours instead of sending that person home after a few hours when they don’t need them anymore.

13) The FAA will allow jeans and sneakers.

And here's a little commentary explaining why even though it's better than what we have now, it's still a terrible deal:

If we agreed to this settlement, NATCA would be required to withdraw all grievances, ULP’s and law suits. We would essentially wave all of our rights to negotiating a collective bargaining agreement to completion and the ability for the membership to ratify it. There would be no back pay for any employee. We would have to accept their IWR’s as imposed.

As you can see, there is not much different from this settlement offer compared to the last settlement offer the Agency gave us. This constitutes another attempt by the FAA to show Congress and the media that they are attempting to resolve the gargantuan labor problems and staffing problems they have created. The truth is, FAA management believes they can run this operation without the expertise, cooperation and help of our members. They have shown how much they disrespect your commitment to this profession and the safety umbrella we provide for the traveling public. They have decided that the controller work force is not important and that anyone can do the fine work you all do on a daily basis.

And if you haven’t noticed, the FAA Union busting machine continues to find ways to divide our ranks so that our members grow discouraged of their Union. Either through A/B/C scale impositions or removals of probationary employees, to more sophisticated conniving such as briefing their managers on a settlement offer that was agreed to remain confidential before it was even delivered to NATCA. We’ve all seen the way they disrespect us. And now they must deal with the mess they have created… The only way to accomplish labor peace in this agency is to negotiate and ratify a collective bargaining agreement with the controllers.

 

[Prino]

How sad. You need to look at the BIG picture my good man.

please elaborate. not saying i think controllers are paid enough, just saying 5% more pay is better than 0%. considering if/when i get to my facility ill be making half what a cpc will be making i think that sucks, but there isnt anything i can do about it. and getting pissed off will only make things worse.

 

[mugenfan_98]

Wow this got oughta control in a hurry. I don't see the big deal. I'm not trying to de-rail this thread again, but like I said this more than I've ever made, 5% more is 5% more. I worked non-union concrete before this. It was terrible. I wanted to quit every day. No insurance offered, no retirement. I've wanted to do this since I was 3 or 4 (my dad's a contoller). I'm not gonna bitch about anything. This is what I wanna do. I understand the stress, the no family time (married and one boy), and the lower then before pay, but at least I might be able to retire and take care of my family.

It's not exactly rags to riches but it's the best damn thing I can do.

 

[SkierMatt]

I agree.

Why don't all of you who are bitching quit and drop out of the application process. Then everyone who is left will get raises as they raise the pay to attract more candidates as all of them have left due to the crappy pay.

Also, not everything in the world has gone up. I was making more every year for the last 8 years than I will make this year. Some of us are just going to be thankful to have a job at all during these tough times. When the economy rebounds is when it will be time to fight for better pay and working conditions. When the economy is down like it is now, you will be lucky to get anything.

Also, if you all could make so much more doing something else, why don't you go do it?

Yeah ok, and maybe i will light a candle and that will solve the worlds problems.

I'm not complaining about the opportunity, I love the opportunity, but if you think for one second once the hiring wave is over things will just be ok. You should really check yourself. Cause the cycle will just repeat itself for your career if you continue on. Having an objection to what is going on with the contract is not whining.

I sympathize with veteran controllers that are getting the shaft right now; and don't blame them one bit for wanting to leave the workforce. Put your self in their shoes. How would you feel if you worked for 20+ yrs working towards your pension and keeping the skys safe and then whooop 30% cut in pay, imposed work rules. I sympathize and I understand something needs to change so If I make this my career, or you make this your career the same doesn't happen to us 20+ yrs down the road.

I'm pretty sure If someone didn't really care or give a crap about succeeding at this profession they would have taken the hint and dropped out of the application process by now. I understand you might be one of those woooo me I'm going to save the world workers, but wouldn't you in your right mind like to get compensated for your great work?

 

[esw2005]

I sympathize with veteran controllers that are getting the shaft right now; and don't blame them one bit for wanting to leave the workforce. Put your self in their shoes. How would you feel if you worked for 20+ yrs working towards your pension and keeping the skys safe and then whooop 30% cut in pay, imposed work rules.

ATC who were employed before the imposed work rules did not receive a 30% pay cut, only new hires were affected.

As you would say "you should really check yourself"

 

[kp52]

Wow this got oughta control in a hurry. I don't see the big deal. I'm not trying to de-rail this thread again, but like I said this more than I've ever made, 5% more is 5% more. I'm not gonna bitch about anything. This is what I wanna do. I understand the stress, the no family time (married and one boy), and the lower then before pay, but at least I might be able to retire and take care of my family.

It's not exactly rags to riches but it's the best damn thing I can do.

The problem is that's just what the FAA wants. I agree with what gnW and ATLTRACON said earlier. Look at the big picture. If you don't do anyhthing, then what's going to stop the FAA from imposing more rules and pay cuts. There is something you can do, educate yourself and stop settling for lower pay for equal work. Everyone keeps looking at the 90k you earn once you're certified. But if you've seen the latest congressional hearings where they discuss how there are not enough trainers to teach the amount of trainees, then you're looking at a situation where you're sitting at 40k for substantially more time than you assumed. Then what? Remember, you were supposed to be making 60k to start, and now you won't hit that until D3. Just because it's more than you've ever made before doesn't make it right. Stop settling and recognize the importance of the job you're doing and your self worth.

 

[dpiatek]

I'm not even going to get involved with what constitutes good pay at the top end (so many factors to consider).. However, all I can say is it is going to majorly suck being in the negatives every month when I get to my center in Kansas until I check out of 4 D-sides and get my first pay raise... :banghead:

 

[esw2005]

The problem is that's just what the FAA wants. I agree with what gnW and ATLTRACON said earlier. Look at the big picture. If you don't do anyhthing, then what's going to stop the FAA from imposing more rules and pay cuts. There is something you can do, educate yourself and stop settling for lower pay for equal work. Everyone keeps looking at the 90k you earn once you're certified. But if you've seen the latest congressional hearings where they discuss how there are not enough trainers to teach the amount of trainees, then you're looking at a situation where you're sitting at 40k for substantially more time than you assumed. Then what? Remember, you were supposed to be making 60k to start, and now you won't hit that until D3. Just because it's more than you've ever made before doesn't make it right. Stop settling and recognize the importance of the job you're doing and your self worth.

Well said Kp52...... I doubt it will ever happen but I would like to see Obama and McCain discuss their views on the current ATC situation at one of the debates.

 

[kp52]

Well said Kp52...... I doubt it will ever happen but I would like to see Obama and McCain discuss their views on the current ATC situation at one of the debates.

no problem, but isn't that quote by Palin not Huckabee?