Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Where IS Waco on this thread? He should be on this like an airline pilot on a free buffet. I hope I didn't ACTUALLY give him a stroke.
What is your favorite low budget plane?
- Thread starter Jet
- Start date
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
Wood wings vs Metal Wings.
The Wood wing team: Skip Stewart, Sean Tucker, Steve Wolf, Jim Leroy, Okie_Pilot, and all the other aerobatic guys that know their stuff.
The Metal Wing team: (sound of crickets)
Okie Pilot smart man.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Looks like it would be a blast to fly!
That'll cost you mor than 60k.
For my money? PA12 or t-craft on floats.
TwoTwoLeft
o- - - - - - -l
I have an incredible amount of hatred toward a particular wood wing Decathlon. Doesn't mean they're all bad though. For gentleman's aerobatics nothing beats a wood wing. Wooden wing decathlons that have been well used have shown to warp across the entire wing at zero alpha with full aileron deflection (vertical rolls). Ive had an aileron jam at full deflection because of this. I perfer the aluminum spar on a Decathlon (I have a lot of acro time in wood & metal) For competiton aerobatics, it just feels more responsive.
No doubt though, wood is good. On biplanes, the whole wing system is much more rigid. The new Great Lakes with the aluminum wings and toe brakes makes me sad.
Hell, even an Extra uses composite layered with plywood.
No doubt though, wood is good. On biplanes, the whole wing system is much more rigid. The new Great Lakes with the aluminum wings and toe brakes makes me sad.
Hell, even an Extra uses composite layered with plywood.
inigo88
Composite-lover
Hey if a mid 90s 8KCAB can be found for under $75k sign me up too! My metal spar desire is for the same reasons as Acrofox: Newer spar, less cycles, less fatigue (although on the other hand aluminum has it's own fatiguing problems). There's also something inherently "spooky" about entrusting yourself to a thirty year old piece of spruce, not unlike the helicopter pilot entrusting his life to the single "Jesus bolt" that holds the main rotor hub on. I'm completely aware of all the treatments the wood goes through, and have learned in structural engineering classes that wood can be much STRONGER than aluminum.
Conversely, during he short time I got to wrench on airplanes for work I got to assist in repairing a Bellanca Viking that had been sitting out, and watch as one of the old timer "wood whisperer" type guys cut the dry rot out of the aileron frame and reskinned the aileron. My school also had a mid 70s 7KCAB that I got to assist with annuals and 100 hours on, and it's a little eerie that even with all the inspection plates, how little you can actually see of the spar.
It's mostly an irrational fear of a different type of aircraft construction I don't have any experience flying in (it took a little getting used to the metal-sparred steel tubular and fabric construction 7ECAs I learned to fly two years ago also). Given the opportunity to fly one I could definitely learn to trust a wood sparred aircraft, but having seen first hand what can happen to it after sitting outside in moisture for a while (and knowing all the spots on the spar you CAN'T see from the inspection plates) I would be very hesitant to own one without knowing its history thoroughly. On the other hand if I could cut the fabric all off, go over the entire thing with a fine toothed comb and then reskin the wing, that would be a satisfactory alternative.
Sent from my iPhone (sorry in advance for the typos/bizarre autocorrect).
Conversely, during he short time I got to wrench on airplanes for work I got to assist in repairing a Bellanca Viking that had been sitting out, and watch as one of the old timer "wood whisperer" type guys cut the dry rot out of the aileron frame and reskinned the aileron. My school also had a mid 70s 7KCAB that I got to assist with annuals and 100 hours on, and it's a little eerie that even with all the inspection plates, how little you can actually see of the spar.
It's mostly an irrational fear of a different type of aircraft construction I don't have any experience flying in (it took a little getting used to the metal-sparred steel tubular and fabric construction 7ECAs I learned to fly two years ago also). Given the opportunity to fly one I could definitely learn to trust a wood sparred aircraft, but having seen first hand what can happen to it after sitting outside in moisture for a while (and knowing all the spots on the spar you CAN'T see from the inspection plates) I would be very hesitant to own one without knowing its history thoroughly. On the other hand if I could cut the fabric all off, go over the entire thing with a fine toothed comb and then reskin the wing, that would be a satisfactory alternative.
Sent from my iPhone (sorry in advance for the typos/bizarre autocorrect).
WacoFan
Bigly
I think AcroFox makes a great point about things such as neglect, conditions, etc. That said, I would never shy away from a well built or well maintained wood wing. I think wood is incredibly strong and how many Pitts', Stearman's, Waco's, Howard DGA's, Stagg's, etc have shed wings. My thing with REALLY old wings (like an original Waco wing from the 30's) isn't so much the wood itself, but the quality of the glue that was used back then, how it holds up, etc. There was a lively argument on the Waco Club forum about that - with one guy asking what was wrong with original wings if dry forever and healthy and others chiming in about the glue, etc. We have one guy on there that has a 1940 UPF-7 that has never been restored - just continuously maintained (he's recovering the lower right wing now). I would love to sow fear against wood-wings though - because then I could pick up wood wing Citabria's and other machines cheap (sorry Wes). Remember...it's all about WacoFan.
As for Boris - looks good to me - it is a biplane, taildragger - the only demerit is a flat engine!
For $50k and under....a Waco project.
For Flying...Luscombe's always represent an exceptional value to me - probably also from the wives tales that exist about them being difficult on the ground (and by difficult I mean...simply does what you want it to do immediately, like a Pitts...apparently this is a bad trait for an airplane to have).
Stinson 108's are exceptional and you can even (for $75k) probably pick up a clapped out V-77 and fly it for a while prior to having to cover it.
I have always thought the short-wing Pipers were exceptional values.
If you are REALLY into wood...nothing is more efficient for a commute than a Mooney Mite. (Tri-gear, flat motor - but I'd love one).
Me....I want a Skyote, would love to take $50k and built scaled down Taperwing (like a Hatz was a scaled down Waco Straightwing), would love to build a Clipped-wing Cub with T-craft wings and 150-180hp.
To truly get value I think you could take $50-$75k and build a Bearhawk - an amazing utility machine.
You could probably get a Howard DGA project for under $50k, perhaps even a Stagg project.
As for Boris - looks good to me - it is a biplane, taildragger - the only demerit is a flat engine!
For $50k and under....a Waco project.
For Flying...Luscombe's always represent an exceptional value to me - probably also from the wives tales that exist about them being difficult on the ground (and by difficult I mean...simply does what you want it to do immediately, like a Pitts...apparently this is a bad trait for an airplane to have).
Stinson 108's are exceptional and you can even (for $75k) probably pick up a clapped out V-77 and fly it for a while prior to having to cover it.
I have always thought the short-wing Pipers were exceptional values.
If you are REALLY into wood...nothing is more efficient for a commute than a Mooney Mite. (Tri-gear, flat motor - but I'd love one).
Me....I want a Skyote, would love to take $50k and built scaled down Taperwing (like a Hatz was a scaled down Waco Straightwing), would love to build a Clipped-wing Cub with T-craft wings and 150-180hp.
To truly get value I think you could take $50-$75k and build a Bearhawk - an amazing utility machine.
You could probably get a Howard DGA project for under $50k, perhaps even a Stagg project.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
Ah... the AD...
Or in more correct terms... the marketing ploy of American Champion Aircraft.
Thankfully, the final issue of the AD looked nothing like what was proposed.
For those who don't know, the FAA has mandated that all wood spar equipped 7 and 8 series must either be inspected routinely (read every year during annual at the least) OR have the wood spars removed and replaced with newer metal spars (that are only sold by ACA).
Nothing about the AD is awful, except its existence in the 7 series. Adds about an hour or so to my annual every year. With the inspection covers... well, it is just part of owning a wood and fabric airplane. If there are more than about 8 inspection holes under the wing... you have the wrong mechanic
Fortunately, the AD allows for complete inspection of the spar (and provides details as well) through the existing factory inspection holes. The original proposal for the AD was to have two inspection holes per wing panel (between each rib), one for the front spar and one for the rear spar. It also wanted several inspection holes on the TOP of the wing as well.
Now... I will admit. I do have a biased towards a wood wing... ONLY because I own a 7ECA with wood spars.
That being said, I have nothing against the newer metal wing 7 and 8 series aircraft, I just detest how ACA used the AD as a marketing boost to sell new wings in a time when demand for new aircraft wasn't exactly at its peak. In my opinion, all it served to do was to create a fear of wood spars in the 7 series and drive down the value of the airplanes.
This brings up an good point. The Decathlon deserves/needs/probably should have had from the start something other than a wood spar. Decathlons have actually been the brunt of the spar issues with the 7 and 8 series aircraft. The AD actually stems from cracks in the 8 series airplanes, not the 7 series. You will find that most cracks in the 7 series are due to some type of impact to the wing structure (groundloop that hit the wing hard, etc...)
My metal spar desire is for the same reasons as Acrofox: Newer spar, less cycles, less fatigue (although on the other hand aluminum has it's own fatiguing problems). There's also something inherently "spooky" about entrusting yourself to a thirty year old piece of spruce...
Conversely, during he short time I got to wrench on airplanes for work I got to assist in repairing a Bellanca Viking that had been sitting out, and watch as one of the old timer "wood whisperer" type guys cut the dry rot out of the aileron frame and reskinned the aileron. My school also had a mid 70s 7KCAB that I got to assist with annuals and 100 hours on, and it's a little eerie that even with all the inspection plates, how little you can actually see of the spar.
It's mostly an irrational fear of a different type of aircraft construction I don't have any experience flying in (it took a little getting used to the metal-sparred steel tubular and fabric construction 7ECAs I learned to fly two years ago also). Given the opportunity to fly one I could definitely learn to trust a wood sparred aircraft, but having seen first hand what can happen to it after sitting outside in moisture for a while (and knowing all the spots on the spar you CAN'T see from the inspection plates) I would be very hesitant to own one without knowing its history thoroughly. On the other hand if I could cut the fabric all off, go over the entire thing with a fine toothed comb and then reskin the wing, that would be a satisfactory alternative.
Don't come fly with me then
And for me, I find it absolutely amazing just how much you CAN see of the spar through those inpsection holes if you have the right tools and know what you are looking at/for.
As for taking the cover off... that is exactly what was done with my airplane. Total rebuild (minus the engine). After 30+ years of primary student training and introductory aerobatics, the spars were just fine. Missing a few rib nails, but that was too be expected. We thought if we had any problems, that would be where we would find them... Wrong!
But you are right, it was nice to go over the spars with a fine tooth comb. It was also done the year the AD was to be issued, so we got a head start as well!
I hate you...
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
Got to thinking about my above post and thought it might come across harsh... I have no intention of it being like that, just trying to shed some light on a very touchy subject in the 7 and 8 series community.
Don't get me wrong, I think the metal spars are a great idea to help breathe life back into aging 7 and 8 series fleet, I just think how we got to this point was gone about the wrong way.
Again... sorry if it came out rough. Just trying to shed some light on the wood vs metal debate as I was affected by the ultimate outcome and remember the original proposals and how they came about.
Don't get me wrong, I think the metal spars are a great idea to help breathe life back into aging 7 and 8 series fleet, I just think how we got to this point was gone about the wrong way.
Again... sorry if it came out rough. Just trying to shed some light on the wood vs metal debate as I was affected by the ultimate outcome and remember the original proposals and how they came about.
WacoFan
Bigly
But you still hate me, right? You're not taking back that part are you?
inigo88
Composite-lover
You didn't come across harsh at all. I admitted a totally irrational fear of a structural construction method that has a proven safety record literally since the dawn of aviation, and I can deal with the consequences. My old school's 7KCAB was an unusual exception to the rule since it sat outside in neglect, and those conditions didn't help to inspire confidence in the 30 year old wood, but it wasn't the wood's fault it was being kept up that way.
I would actually love to fly with you, since the best way of getting rid of irrational fears is to deal with them head on. To that end there's a 70s wood spar 7ECA down here that I've been itching to check out in and start renting (and it's cheap!). As far as bringing down the value of your airplane with bad info I didn't mean to, although maybe I should start... So I can afford my own 7ECA.
I would actually love to fly with you, since the best way of getting rid of irrational fears is to deal with them head on. To that end there's a 70s wood spar 7ECA down here that I've been itching to check out in and start renting (and it's cheap!). As far as bringing down the value of your airplane with bad info I didn't mean to, although maybe I should start... So I can afford my own 7ECA.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
You didn't come across harsh at all. I admitted a totally irrational fear of a structural construction method that has a proven safety record literally since the dawn of aviation, and I can deal with the consequences. My old school's 7KCAB was an unusual exception to the rule since it sat outside in neglect, and those conditions didn't help to inspire confidence in the 30 year old wood, but it wasn't the wood's fault it was being kept up that way.
I would actually love to fly with you, since the best way of getting rid of irrational fears is to deal with them head on. To that end there's a 70s wood spar 7ECA down here that I've been itching to check out in and start renting (and it's cheap!). As far as bringing down the value of your airplane with bad info I didn't mean to, although maybe I should start... So I can afford my own 7ECA.
Sitting outside is the worst thing you can do to one of these airplanes. In fact, mine has only sat outside a handful of nights since it was recovered.
Curious... what is the rental rate of that 7ECA?
You have given me no reason not to, so yes, I still hate you...
A
Adler
Guest
That's not a Velocity, it's the Chevelocity! I got to taxi it once. 427 cubic-inch small block Chevy racing engine producing 450hp, mounted on the tail of an already fast airplane. Top speed - 230mph! Oh yea, it sounds cool too...
^^way out the budget, and so are the Aircam's I've seen posted here. An Aircam is my dream plane. The most fun flying I've ever had.
I think a Miller Special would be sweet, but I'd also like a plane with two seats so I can take girls up flying.
z987k
Well-Known Member
You don't have to do anything. The wood spars planes already go for a good bit less. A 7ECA just basic vfr is not really that expensive at all, especially with wood wings.
inigo88
Composite-lover
1969 7KCAB (that sat outside) - $126/hr wet. Wood spar. San Francisco Bay Area (north).
1974 7ECA - $89/hr wet. Metal spar. San Francisco Bay Area (east).
2001 7ECA - $99/hr wet. Metal spar. San Francisco Bay Area (east).
1973 7GCAA - $90/hr wet. Wood spar. San Diego Area.
The 7GCAA is the one I'd like to start flying down here. Rental costs were highest in the northern SF bay area (there aren't many flight schools to choose from and it's an affluent area with an extremely high cost of living). I thought the 2001 American Champion 7ECA was a bargain for $100/hr wet for that area (it's a beautiful airplane), so much so that I would commute an hour away from home just to fly it. I've noticed a trend that the rental rates in Southern CA can be significantly cheaper than Northern CA (especially through the large flying clubs), and I tend to gravitate toward the smaller mom n' pop type part 61 schools rather than the part 141 pilot factories. I'll bet those are astronomically high compared to the rates in the Midwest.
I hope I didn't make myself look like a complete moron with my previous posts here on the wood vs. aluminum spars. This thread made me do a lot of critical thinking and as long as I could afford to hangar it I don't think I'd have any aversion to owning a wood-wing airplane at all.
inventor
Well-Known Member
S35
You're a dentist?