What is a scab in the airline pilot world?

Pot Calls Kettle Black, Film at Eleven

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The Freedom and Gulfstream guys may not fit in the term "scab", but they sure fit the term "scum". Skirting the efforts of various pilot groups to advance pay and work rules, simply for their own personal gain. Sickening.

[/ QUOTE ]I'd take it easy with the rhetoric if I were you, Matt; some people might say the same of a 300 hr pilot taking a job when the resumes of pilots eminently more qualified sat on HR's desk. By all rights, you should still be flight instructing right now. You got lucky, and I don't begrudge you for that, but it's just as easy to argue that you sold yourself out for your own personal gain by working as an unpaid intern (what's your time worth, anyway?) rather than pay your dues the old-fashioned way. In other words, you bought your job with the money you should have been paid during your "volunteer" work there. How's that any different from what the guys who went to Gulfstream or Alpine did?

Just a little food for thought, bro. I'm not baggin' on you, just suggesting that you not be quite so quick to bag on others.
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

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I'd take it easy with the rhetoric if I were you, Matt; some people might say the same of a 300 hr pilot taking a job when the resumes of pilots eminently more qualified sat on HR's desk. By all rights, you should still be flight instructing right now. You got lucky, and I don't begrudge you for that, but it's just as easy to argue that you sold yourself out for your own personal gain by working as an unpaid intern (what's your time worth, anyway?) rather than pay your dues the old-fashioned way. In other words, you bought your job with the money you should have been paid during your "volunteer" work there.

Just a little food for thought, bro.

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Hey Aloft, so what is your real opinion on the deal? Cause you seem to have a different one here

Internships are there for a reason. For you to get a foot in the door and try to get ahead. There isn't anything wrong with that. Some internships are paid (not very much), so would you consider that selling yourself to get a job?

I think you are just jealous of Matt. He can have whatever opinion he wants because he is there, you aren't. He sees this stuff on a day to day basis, even though it has only been a few months.
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

I've edited my comments above to clarify, since I think you missed my point. Yes, I think internships are a great way to get ahead--but at the same time, someone who went the intern route bashing someone who skipped the volunteer work phase and just forked over the cash smacks of hypocrisy just a tad, don't you think?
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

Aloft,

No, I fully understand your point cause I can see where you are coming from. I just think you are comparing apples to oranges. One is working with the airline and learning stuff about the company. Some are compensated, but all (at lesat that I have heard of) get travel benefits, which could be considered a form of compensation. The other is paying a company to occupy a pilot seat where one is or isn't required.

Being an intern guarantees you nothing. Last time I checked, Alpine guaranteed you a job after forking over $20,000. There is no way an intern would make that in 3-6 months.
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

All I'm saying is that it's not cool to criticize others for cutting corners to get ahead when you've cut a few yourself.
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

[ QUOTE ]
I've edited my comments above to clarify, since I think you missed my point. Yes, I think internships are a great way to get ahead--but at the same time, someone who went the intern route bashing someone who skipped the volunteer work phase and just forked over the cash smacks of hypocrisy just a tad, don't you think?

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Actually, doing the internship provided me with college credits, since it was an educational experience. I WAS lucky to get hired with low time, however it was not GIVEN to me. I had to earn it with my work during the internship. It wasn't as if I walked in, said "sign me up", and sat there doing nothing. The internship required a LOT of work for 5 months, and although I did not get paid, I did get college credits, travel benefits, and jumpseat benefits.

I bash Gulfstream, and will stand by that. Those pilots are taking away a PAYING pilot job. They are paying to work for an airline. I did not pay to work for an airline. I am just surpassing 250 hours in my aircraft type, and have not paid a cent for any of that time. I did not P-F-T either, since I was paid during my training time at my company. I do not make industry leading wages, that is for sure. However comparing me doing an internship for no wage and getting hired with low time to a Gulfstream B1900 FO paying for his/her job is ubsurd. I am highly offended that you would make that remark, regarding being hypocritical.

If you think for one second that getting hired at a regional with low time means not paying dues, you are very mistaken. I think getting hired with such low time puts even more pressure on a pilot, since you are under a microscope from day one and must show that you can succeed in this intense environment. Saying that I've somehow "beat the system" for where I work and my current position is ridiculous. I haven't beaten any system. I've been placed into a position that requires hard work and constant study to learn more and get prepared for upgrade. I haven't had my hand held through training one bit; I have had to work just as hard, if not harder, than anyone in the regionals to get through training and continue to be an effective FO on the line.

I will not retract my statements about the Freedom Airlines or Gulfstream pilots. I stand by it, and will say such things directly to the face of any pilot at those companies. I suggest you retract your statements regarding my hypocricy, especially with your previous post regarding doing regional internships in the link above. Now who is being hypocritical?
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

FlyChicaga reminded me of something that I saw at Skyway.

Most pilots at Skyway were hired in the 1500 to 2000 hour range back in 1996.

However in 1995, we had about four students that were hired fresh out of UND that had 300 hours as part of some program called "Spectrum" or something like that.

Let me tell you, the pressure was on these pilots like you could not believe. There was almost a special standard that these guys would have to perform to that didn't apply to anyone else.

When two of them failed checkrides and were fired, people reveled and darned near struck a parade in celebration.

FlyChicaga can probably relate with the above story.

When I got hired by Delta, to be very honest, a couple of my classmates saw tan skin and a young face then presumed that I was some sort of 'special program'. But when they discovered that I was the only person in class with part-121 PIC time and had the second highest amount of total time in a class of 29 I never heard a peep again.

Pilots can be a strange lot and some can carry a lot of petty jealousies and grudges, but luckily those types of pilots are very much in the minority.
 
The Real Scum Bags

We all forget who the real scum (scabs) bags are. Who caused the pilot group to strike in the first place? Who got the big yearly bonus while the pilot’s take a 15% pay cut? Who requires the pilot’s to fly crazy bid lines, with less than 8 hrs sleep. Who started the jump seat, company only, policy? Now all together: MANAGEMENT! MANAGEMENT! MANAGEMENT!
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

FlyChicaga,

Thanks for explaining that a lot better than I ever could.
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

I don't think that what Matt has done is cutting corners. He didn't do PFT, he didn't cross any picket lines, or anything like that.

What Matt did is the ultimate form of networking. He went and got an internship, made some contacts, and met some people who saw that he was a good guy, knew his stuff, and would work hard. They saw what he was like to work with for months.

So they did the logical thing when he graduated. They took someone who they knew pretty well and who they had seen working for months over someone who they interviewed and didn't know about beyond that.

What Matt did is no different than someone who worked as a summer intern anywhere else getting a job offer from that company after graduation. If that is cutting corners, so be it.
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

In defense of the fundamental points that I believe Aloft is making; there is little difference between an unpaid internship and PFT. Both are in essence trading something of value for something one desires. If one individual whishes to trade money to further their career, how is that different than say the individual who trades time? Or does time have no value? Should the pilot who spent the time and money to get a Bachelors degree be held in contempt by those who didn’t, as it obviously gives them a leg up which to some in aviation seem to regard as an unfair advantage.

If someone chooses to invest $20,000 in an essentially unpaid position that will elevate his or her career prospects why bust on them, if you are not going to bust on the guy who gave up 5 or 6 months of potential wages (in the guise of an internship) to further his/her prospects. If pilots are going to eat their own young for PFT then the same standard should apply to unpaid internships. To defend it (internships) as a learning experience where college credit is granted is a shallow point at best: college credit can be granted for almost any reason in this country, just surf the web and see how many college credits/degrees are available for “life experience”. To assert that an individual who chose the route of unpaid intern holds some moral high ground versus and individual who paid for training is a pretty far stretch, and smacks of self-righteousness.


Aviation is a competitive business and it draws competitive individuals, so to expect that everyone is going to take what some consider the morally correct path in furtherance of their own careers is expecting to circumvent human nature itself.

The vitriol apparent towards Gulfstream/Alpine pilots seems a bit overwrought. Should we also get down on pilots who have parents that finance their flight training? I mean if Mommy and Daddy are paying the bills isn’t that an unfair advantage? Or what about you guys who take out loans and go to a flight academy, doesn’t that give you and advantage over some poor slob paying out of pocket at his local FBO.

We shouldn’t begrudge a Pilot who gets lucky as FlyChicago obviously did, any more than we should crucify a guy who tries to increase his chances of getting lucky.
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

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We shouldn’t begrudge a Pilot who gets lucky as FlyChicago obviously did, any more than we should crucify a guy who tries to increase his chances of getting lucky.

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Don't take this as a personal attack, internships are just a part of a university experience. I really think you guys are missing FlyChicaga' point and mine. I know what you are trying to say but it is a mute point.

PFT ruins the industr, drives wages down, and it hurts the industry as a whole. When was the last time an internship did that?
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

Well, it's not like Matt didn't get paid for his work. He got paid in college credit, which is what he used to get his degree from the best damn university out there.
grin.gif


Unpaid internships for credit are part of the college experience. I was lucky. Mine was paid, but then, you could accuse me of cutting corners. The only reason I even knew about the internship was because my father was friends with the guy who oversaw the program. Without that link, I don't get it.
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

I work in telecom and I see an endless stream of interns who are in fact taking the jobs of engineers. They are a source of free labor for the company.

They are given the more menial and mundane tasks, but its still work that somebody on the payroll should be doing.

I don't see how the very small percentage of people who actually engage in PFT are significant enough to affect an entire industry. Eventually these people will progress to the majors, give them the benefit of the doubt.

I just think there is to much name calling in aviation. It's hard to be a team builder if certain people on the team are degraded. To further vilify certain pilots doesn't bode well for their future cooperation. Treat them decent and try to change their mind set, alienating them isn't going to do anyone any good in the long run.
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

[ QUOTE ]
I work in telecom and I see an endless stream of interns who are in fact taking the jobs of engineers. They are a source of free labor for the company.

They are given the more menial and mundane tasks, but its still work that somebody on the payroll should be doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you guys hire them as engineers after they graduate? If you do, then it's not they are really taking jobs away from people. It's like they're getting a tryout and then if they successfully complete it, they get the job.

You could say the same thing for the summer associate program that many law firms have going, too.

I don't believe in hating anyone, so I do agree with you about the need for less of that in the cockpit towards anyone.
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

Maybe one in 20 will get a job with my company and I agree it’s an opportunity to kind of feel people out (no pun intended) and the ones that are a good fit get an offer, but they all do provide some form of labor. Many find that telecom isn’t all that exciting and don’t pursue a job.

And some (like pilots) find that there isn’t a lot of the romance that they expected. Believe me, going over past engineering studies and routing cable and selecting equipment locations is about a fun as dental surgery. Being a field engineer sounds great until it’s been raining every day for a week and even cold food looks warm. Just as being an airline pilot looks great until you realize that your neighbor the janitor gets weekends and holidays off.

We all like to dream of the great things that we are going to do with our lives, and sometimes, those dreams are a lot harder to reach than we ever imagined. We make compromises just to survive and try to justify them. We regret bad decisions or missed opportunities. Retirement homes are full of people who have been literally broken by life, and lost dreams. I don’t want to fuel those fires of self-contempt by crucifying and alienating a man because he chose a different path than I. It really hurts me to see a group of people (aviators) that have had my respect all my life become, well, petty. I always thought pilots were better than that.
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

[ QUOTE ]
...there is little difference between an unpaid internship and PFT. Both are in essence trading something of value for something one desires. If one individual whishes to trade money to further their career, how is that different than say the individual who trades time?

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Spare the rhetoric. Do you have a clear understanding of Gulfstream Academy/Airlines? Those pilots flying in the FO program (whatever they call it) are not advancing their careers. Interns have always had the same place in the airlines: They come and work for some specified amount of time, assisting in the administrative duties in some area of the company, then possibly down the road have a future at that company. However due to Gulfstream, the position of pilot has changed. It is now acceptable for pilots to pay for a job. Because of their desire to fly, they are willing to put down $20,000+ to fly 250 hours in a Beech 1900 as a first officer, when that position should be filled by a pilot who is getting paid for that work. If they are lucky they can continue to be a FO... if they are unlucky, they are cast into the world of unemployed pilots when someone else willing to put down the cash comes up behind them.

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To defend it (internships) as a learning experience where college credit is granted is a shallow point at best: college credit can be granted for almost any reason in this country, just surf the web and see how many college credits/degrees are available for “life experience”. To assert that an individual who chose the route of unpaid intern holds some moral high ground versus and individual who paid for training is a pretty far stretch, and smacks of self-righteousness.

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Are you making an accusation of self-righteousness? Those are pretty strong words, considering you don't know me. I do agree that college credits can be granted for many things nowadays. Do you think that college credits should not be offered for spending time in a learning environment?

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Aviation is a competitive business and it draws competitive individuals, so to expect that everyone is going to take what some consider the morally correct path in furtherance of their own careers is expecting to circumvent human nature itself.

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So what you are basically saying here is that it is just fine for pilots to degrade their own industry to advance their career? It is OK to take the morally unethical path so you can get ahead?

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They are given the more menial and mundane tasks, but its still work that somebody on the payroll should be doing.

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I haven't seen the last time any airline intern has been allowed to operate as a flight crewmember.

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I don't see how the very small percentage of people who actually engage in PFT are significant enough to affect an entire industry. Eventually these people will progress to the majors, give them the benefit of the doubt.

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Look around! PFT-type operations are popping up all over the place. It is a virus of sorts. Why pay FOs to fly when they will pay to fly? I mean, they are only advancing their careers to move on to the majors. The sad fact is that in the current airline industry, many regional pilots will not move on to the majors. Jobs at the majors will be very competitive in the future. Many claim that those who have PFTed will have to fight even harder to obtain a job at the majors, due to popular opinion against such operations.


I am surprised with the amount of information out there available on Gulfstream, Freedom, etc., that there are arguments like this still happening. Do some research on these companies before you form opinions, because you will then see the obvious distinctions between them and unpaid internships.
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

I think that you gave a very good explanation of the situation flychicaga. If the internship you had was like most any at your or any school for that matter I am sure that it was extremely selective. Internships are not for the students picking. It is a very competitive process to get one at any college nowadays, especially an aviation related internship.

An unpaid or paid internship although sometimes mistaken for pft, is definitely not. Look at any other industry and you will see similar practices. Using an example from a previous post; Work at a law firm over the summer and maybe receive a job offer when you graduate. This is not called pft, it is called networking and building connections. Many airlines even required recommendations from current pilots before an interview will be granted to a potential pilot. This is not unfair because in this case and in the case of an internship a company is simply screening for the best man/woman available for the job.
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

"I don't see how the very small percentage of people who actually engage in PFT are significant enough to affect an entire industry"

I hope you're right about it being a small percentage. The whole point is to keep the cancer small...and cut it out if possible....
The professional pilots on this board consider PFT to be mother of all evils...as it should be. We can only hope that PFT stays small...cause if it catches on, it's gonna make a mockery of the career...and wouldn't management just love that.
 
Re: The ugly side of the airline industry

[ QUOTE ]

The professional pilots on this board consider PFT to be mother of all evils...as it should be. We can only hope that PFT stays small...cause if it catches on, it's gonna make a mockery of the career...and wouldn't management just love that.

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Ahh, whenever there's an opening for "Spiritual Advisor to Jetcareers.com", you're on the short list.
 
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