Autothrust Blue
Speed Bugs, Surf, Sunshine
Allowing (for example) Trans States Airlines to dictate hiring practices for United Airlines is not something that will be agreeable to United management or the pilots.
Welcome to the Rest of your Career: Redux
- Thread starter Firebird2XC
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Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Who says that allows a regional to dictate hiring practices? Your argument makes some pretty severe assumptions and smacks of Sophistry. If there were to be a flow through, would not the eventual gaining airline want to dictate hiring practices? Can you imagine them not having a hand in it?
There was once a rumor of using Eagle as a gateway to AA with a given flow and master seniority list, etc. AA, of course, would have been the hiring supervisor.
... and even then, if some of the pilots flowing up proved to be less than capable, that's what the new hire training process is for. In fact, some of Eagle's more notorious boners have since found themselves taking extended medical leave, if you get my drift.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
We need a super-like button.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
United Airlines already has Trans States flying their passengers. Sorry, but as long as that's the case, this argument is lunacy.
Autothrust Blue
Speed Bugs, Surf, Sunshine
The whole system as it stands now is nuts.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
... because it lacks oversight in the name of low cost. We both grew up as kids of pilots, and therefore had a sort of ingrained image of the industry. I don't know about you, but I ran off and joined the circus for a decade, and came back to the business in the last few years. The first day of my indoc at my first airline gig, an Embraer 170 flew overhead and somebody else had to tell me what it was.
The business changed because labor had control of scope before deregulation and before deregulation the business had control of profit margins. Now it's just a crazy, bottomless free-for-all. Kind of like a party I went to once. But I digress.
Baseline requirements are a must-have industry wide. Once you establish that, you shouldn't have QA problems with whatever it's producing- be it CASM, new hire pilots, or ticket agents. Or whatever. There comes a point where good enough is good enough. End statement. And that's what pilots don't get. Once it's good enough, nobody wants to pay any more for it. You can only leverage 'experience' so far when somebody else is writing the checks.
Autothrust Blue
Speed Bugs, Surf, Sunshine
Eh, the thing is, when Colgan went out and balled up a Dash, it was a Colgan airplane. I'd like to see who winds up held responsible (by a court, mind you—and monetarily, since that is what really matters) for damages in the Colgan accident before expanding. (I do seem to recall that Delta was basically absolved of any responsibility for Comair 5191.)
Yes. And probably a "slightly off kilter" view too. For me, the off-kilterness persists.
The thing is, there has ALWAYS been a baseline. Just a rather low, but non-zero, one. (Think rest, think FO qualifications.) I'd argue that a lot of H.R. 5900's downstream affects (ATP/FOQ, Part 117) aren't hugely revolutionary and certainly aren't going to be a magic "end all" 'fix' to what ails the business. Note, I don't really know—besides the somewhat insane level of competition—what is really wrong with the business.
National airline policy, indeed.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
... when pilots are getting hired with the absolute minimum level of certification required, that's as close to zero you can get without actually, truly hitting zero. It's the zero mark as far as anything that matters is concerned. And no, it won't be a magical, end-all fix to it. Because he problem is that while costs have gone up, and the price of business has gone up in correlation, the airlines wanted to do something that they couldn't do before- fill the airplanes. Back in the day, the ticket prices were fixed, so you could make break-even pretty easily, but the rest of those seats were just going to waste. So the airlines found ways to sell those tickets at a discount. Once Deregulation hit, it was pretty much a free-for-all. Tactics pioneered by those as vile as Frank Lorenzo or as as venerated as Herb Kelleher ushered in the new era of low cost at any cost. And what was the difference? Kelleher used the circumstances to start a new airline from scratch, took care of his people and pulled off a stunning feat of success. But even the vaunted Southwest had its shady beginnings. I read a story about mechanics lifting parts off other airplanes (that they may or may not have owned) in the early days to keep their jets flying.
.. and Lorenzo really stepped in it. He took small startups, leveraged them into ownership of Legacies, then used bankruptcy court to try to reset things. The problem, ultimately, was the prior precedent and status quo from pre-Deregulation days.
The airlines were too slow to adapt to the times and offer products people wanted at prices they'd pay. As a result, they went for any new way to crush their own cost structure, and the race to the bottom began.
You REALLY want to fix the airline business? We have to RE-REGULATE.
Autothrust Blue
Speed Bugs, Surf, Sunshine
L-16B
Well-Known Member
Can u explain th AA recalled out of seniority order? Just curious as I'm clueless other than my TWA family member telling me to quit airways since the day the merger was approved.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
We push for it, step by step. The legislative changes we made after Colgan 3407 is actually the start of a much larger picture. Prior to that, the industry hammered the existing pay and benefits of the profession by dragging things down to the lowest common denominators- regional new hire pay and FAR bare-bones rest and scheduling rules. Anything existing better than those points were throwbacks to pre-DeRegulation days. So we had a chance to move that ball forward.
Since labor will no longer be guaranteed dirt cheap (as pilots and lenders are finally seeing just how pathetic the rate of return the job is) they've got to go after other things. But so do we. We can't just keep chasing the bigger donut. We have to demand better and more for what we're doing right here and now. But I think we also need to look at the way the airline business is regulated.
Deregulation was designed to make a commodity out of air travel and make it affordable for the masses. It is. But now it's too affordable. If raising ticket prices $10 a seat would make a world of difference divided up to the crew, imagine what we could do if we did that industry wide. That's the key- when the laws were changed after Colgan 3407, it wasn't 'pattern bargaining', it was regulation. If airlines raised their prices unilaterally to make a few more bucks, it would be called 'collusion'. If the government mandated it, for stability of a vital piece of the national and world economic infrastructure, for example, it's once again called 'regulation'. The only difference between a crime and necessity of the common good in the eyes of the government is whether or not they think it's their idea.
So we press for a way to set a new baseline. If demand at a particular airport, for example, fails to meet the supply then perhaps we could mandate that supply be regulated, and let the airlines set their prices.
Things like EAS have to go. If people aren't willing to pay the price to get air service into a community to cover the operating costs of getting it there, they don't need it that badly. This is intentional over-supply that's being supplemented out of the pockets of pilots- TWICE. Once, via the taxes we all pay as citizens, and AGAIN, via the unprofitable route that reinforces the idea that pilots don't need to make more than they do because of overhead.
There's an unprecedented amount of waste and graft in the existing system, and rather than picking employee's pockets, the public would do well to stop pretending that things are just magically there because "they're necessary". The airline system is as regulated as ever, except against ONE thing- idiotic levels of oversupply of a product with an artificially lowered cost.
... but the general public hears about a possible $10 rise in ticket prices. $10! That's barely even a cab to the airport for most cities. Not even, in many. But people want something for nothing, and we're all the suckers that give it to them. I might never change that, but I'm going out fighting.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
I don't entirely know the gospel of it as written, but I can share some of the oral history I know. The problem with the AA scenario is this- like East vs West at USAir, AMR has APA vs TWA ALPA. When AMR acquired TWA in... 99? they made a royal mess of things with the list integration. As best as I understand, the TWA ALPA leaders cut a deal for themselves and threw the rest of the list under the bus. The end result was a lengthy series of lawsuits and other valid or not-so-valid butthurt that continues to this day. End result, many former TWA pilots wound up flowbacks at Eagle, or others on the street, or others considered brand-new newhires with recall rights at a date far later to be determined.
Meanwhile, Eagle pilots were getting awarded dated seniority list numbers. When AA started recalled around 5 years or so ago, IIRC, they (and possibly the APA had a hand in this) called up some of the TWA folks that were on the street even though Eagle pilots with dated numbers were technically senior to them. This is due to some one of a dozen or so arbitrations on the matter. Mind you- TWA kids were furloughed and told they'd be regarded as Day 1 newhires, which automatically made all Eagle flowthroughs with numbers senior to them.
This has people pissed off and litigious to this day. Former TWA pilots actually won a HUGE settlement against ALPA. I don't recall the number, but remember wondering how the hell ALPA would actually pay it...
So now, you had several Eagle pilots that got bypassed, so they sued. And won. And got sent up to AA with bidding rights due their APA list seniority- and back pay. As for the rest of us, this is where the magical '824 flow-through slots' comes from. The remaining number of Captains on property numbered 824- so as a remedy (placebo) for the harm they received because senior Captains did not flow (and they therefore held worse schedules, pay rates, etc..) Eagle pilots were awarded 824 transferrable flow slots, awarded in seniority order, with the only requisite being that you were an Eagle Captain before you went. The FOs at Eagle, while arguably also harmed by this botched 'recall'' scenario... We got popsicles and a punk in the junk, I think. Maybe just the junk-punch.
For those soon to be joining the AA family from USAir- if you're already on USAir's list, you'll integrate with whatever ratio you negotiate with AA. Currently, all 'numbered' Eagle pilots are already at AA- so they'll be integrated as AA pilots. They really are just AA pilots now. Remaining Eagle flow-throughs are just packing 33 to 50 percent minimums of total new hire classes. In other words, don't sweat it- us Eagle pukes are still junior to those of you already anointed worth of mainline status...
That may or may not have included more information than you wanted. I've explained this a few thousand times now and get carried away....
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L-16B
Well-Known Member
Im not going to lie - that's extremely confusing. I know about the TWA lawsuit and them thinking that it will be the nail in ALPA's coffin - TBD obviously. I also understand that the Eagle flow has been a heatedly debated topic and it makes me think hard about u and seggy and ATN's argument which I want no part of as I admittedly have no answer to. I thank you for ur detailed report however. So when AA and TWA merged I assume that there was a flow through, and I assume that every TWA pilot was senior to every eagle pilot at the time the list was put together?
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Brother, you don't even know the half of it. The sad part? It started because the Regional Jet craze caught on, and the APA thumbed their noses at them, not wanting to fly jets at those pay rates and then they his behind scope and told management to suck it.
Then management said, "how about a little scope relief... Just a few 50 seaters..."
... And Letter 3 was born.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Not sure what your point is here. The passenger doesn't realize that he's not on Continental in your example. He bought the ticket on the CAL web site or by calling CAL reservations, he boards an airplane with a CAL logo and name on the side, he reads a CAL inflight magazine, etc. The CAL brand name is all over everything. To argue that it's ok for the pilot flying that flight to be somehow below the acceptable standards for CAL mainline is ridiculous. It's the same passenger on the same brand!!!
Autothrust Blue
Speed Bugs, Surf, Sunshine
No kidding. Ask the old man how he felt when he saw a Metroliner painted in Western colors. But don't do it until you feed him some beer.
Unfortunately, money talks, and emotions don't. The passengers' estates (and the lawyers engaged to represent them) are principally concerned with money.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Actually, no. The Letter 3 awards of APA seniority numbers to Eagle pilots took place sometime around 97 or 98, as Letter 3 was the ugly product of a 'Four Party' agreement by which the APA allowed specific scope relief to AA/Eagle Airlines to even operate *jet* equipment of any size with pilots not on the APA list. The flow-through was Eagle ALPA's demand for allowing a 'Flow back' clause where APA pilots would wind up at Eagle with 'super seniority' and Captain seats if AA furloughed because Eagle got jets. AA/Eagle management then pulled a fast one- the scope relief limited the number of jets with greater than 44 seats. That's why we have Embraer 140s- they're just lengthened Embraer 135s with 44 seats. This, of course, made the APA hopping mad.
The TWA acquisition happened in January of 2001, several years later. I'm not 100% on my timeline, but by the time list integration was being dealt with, 9/11 had happened. Now, you have many many TWA pilots that were sold out by their ALPA leaders in the integration that were furloughed. Many wound up on the street, with seniority status later determined by arbitration to be equivalent to that of an undated new hire. Then, you had TWA pilots that got APA numbers, but flowed back to Eagle- as 'super senior Captains'. (Contrary to legend, many of them were beyond super cool, and not the super dicks some made them out to be.) And then you had Eagle pilots, who as of 1998 had been given APA seniority numbers with the promise that they'd get called up to the big leagues 'any day now'. This effectively made many Eagle pilots senior to the 'furloughed, no-date, no number but with recall rights TWA pilots', entirely by virtue of the Letter 3 nonsense happening three or four years prior.
Meanwhile, 15 years went by, the last of the flowbacks took recall within the past few years, the Eagle pilots with numbers finally got made whole, and the first of the previously harmed Eagle pilots (the 824) will start filling new hire classes in the next few months. Not even the whole classes- Eagle still has to plan to backfill the attrition. Guess what- MORE ARBITRATION!!!!!111! Yay.
Now, enter the merger. It's enough to make a guy's hair fall out. Even still- At this point, the 'numbered guys' are all gone. AA and USAir will merge lists, and you guys can feel the pain of what we call 'Four Party Talks' where four separate parties sit down to negotiate- that hate each other. And then we throw in the East vs. West drama, and we have SIX PARTY TALKS!
My brain just 'sploded. But hey, at least I might see the left seat of an RJ sometime.. after 6 1/2 years. Yay.
L-16B
Well-Known Member
No doubt a lot of eagle guys are frustrated. Flows are confusing and can help or screw u over. I know some cal guys that quit express to leapfrog everyone in the flow so they could get hired back In 03-04 I believe. So everyone at eagle currently has no seniority number at AA and goes to the bottom of the list when they flow?
