Welcome to the Rest of your Career: Redux

L-16B said:
No doubt a lot of eagle guys are frustrated. Flows are confusing and can help or screw u over. I know some cal guys that quit express to leapfrog everyone in the flow so they could get hired back In 03-04 I believe. So everyone at eagle currently has no seniority number at AA and goes to the bottom of the list when they flow?
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Yes. At this point, via several arbitration remedy awards, every pilot that was on property at Eagle before October 2011 has flow rights to AA- but we go in as day 1 newhires. Bottom of the list. We get to keep sick time and vacation accrual rates though, which is nice.

Mostly, we just want some senior folks to move on as they have long wanted. That's the part that hurts- this agreement is rooted as far back as the late 90s, and pre 9/11. People really thought they'd go to AA in a few years- so they never left, and never made plans to go elsewhere.

I know I've had some crazy theories about the merger, and I still believe them. If I'm right, it just means Parker won out in the overall power struggle- he gets his Lorenzo-esque mega airline.

I have nothing against USAir folks, but inheriting the messes in your pilot group on top of AMR's collective disaster, while knowing it could potentially slow my own progress as several thousand people slot in above me is frustrating. I don't even care if I go to AA- my finances are geared towards slaying it on RJ captain pay. I'd bail for elsewhere if I could, but family issues have me golden cuffed to my stable current gig. In the meantime, I foresee fences. Or lots of yelling at Neo 'Merican pilot meetings.

You USAir folks are walking into the biggest, most convoluted pilot labor mess I could ever imagine, and are bringing more with you. We're all so boned I don't even know where to start. And management will laugh all the way to the bank.
 
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Firebird2XC said:
Yes. At this point, via several arbitration remedy awards, every pilot that was on property at Eagle before October 2011 has flow rights to AA- but we go in as day 1 newhires. Bottom of the list. We get to keep sick time and vacation accrual rates though, which is nice.

Mostly, we just want some senior folks to move on as they have long wanted. That's the part that hurts- this agreement is rooted as far back as the late 90s, and pre 9/11. People really thought they'd go to AA in a few years- so they never left, and never made plans to go elsewhere.

I know I've had some crazy theories about the merger, and I still believe them. If I'm right, it just means Parker won out in the overall power struggle- he gets his Lorenzo-esque mega airline.

I have nothing against USAir folks, but inheriting the messes in your pilot group on top of AMR's collective disaster, while knowing it could potentially slow my own progress as several thousand people slot in above me is frustrating. I don't even care if I go to AA- my finances are geared towards slaying it on RJ captain pay. I'd bail for elsewhere if I could, but family issues have me golden cuffed to my stable current gig.

You USAir folks are walking into the biggest, most convoluted pilot labor mess I could ever imagine, and are bringing more with you. We're all so boned I don't even know where to start. And management will laugh all the way to the bank.
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Oh no @skyw82 and I are third listers and while we will be very annoyed we will sit with our popcorn watching the SLI mess.
 
L-16B said:
No doubt a lot of eagle guys are frustrated. Flows are confusing and can help or screw u over. I know some cal guys that quit express to leapfrog everyone in the flow so they could get hired back In 03-04 I believe.
Click to expand...

There is another flow that didn't work too well. After 9/11 I got the opportunity to have CAL guys flowback resulting in my furlough...but shockingly I never got to flow up to CAL.....I'm not too sure I know of any flows that actually worked well....
 
L-16B said:
I assume we will be DOH with everyone else after merger announcement - Feb 13?
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Beats me. I'm assuming everybody on AA and USAir's respective lists will be ratioed in/negotiated. I am waaaay outside the loop on that one.
With nuts like the guy that wrote the judge a letter running around, it's going to be a mess, no matter how it goes down.
 
Eagle421flyer said:
There is another flow that didn't work too well. After 9/11 I got the opportunity to have CAL guys flowback resulting in my furlough...but shockingly I never got to flow up to CAL.....I'm not too sure I know of any flows that actually worked well....
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Same deal with the initial part of the J4J deal at PSA. The mainline guys "flowed" down into our left (and in some cases right) seats but when the time came for us to flow up, the language that allowed for it was buried in "LOA TBD" and nobody at that point was willing to write it. Also, when we tried the grievance process the arbitrator said he didn't have jurisdiction in a dispute between PSA ALPA and USAirways management because the ALPA CBA was with PSA Management.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Beats me. I'm assuming everybody on AA and USAir's respective lists will be ratioed in/negotiated. I am waaaay outside the loop on that one.
With nuts like the guy that wrote the judge a letter running around, it's going to be a mess, no matter how it goes down.
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Regardless of all the screaming and letter writing (which is good entertainment, but I doubt will make a difference to a federal judge), hopefully the two previous mega mergers will help pave the way for a smoother SLI than the USAir disaster. After all, there is binding arbitration on that correct? It just hasn't been put into effect.
 
BobDDuck said:
Same deal with the initial part of the J4J deal at PSA. The mainline guys "flowed" down into our left (and in some cases right) seats but when the time came for us to flow up, the language that allowed for it was buried in "LOA TBD" and nobody at that point was willing to write it. Also, when we tried the grievance process the arbitrator said he didn't have jurisdiction in a dispute between PSA ALPA and USAirways management because the ALPA CBA was with PSA Management.
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"LOA TBD." Thanks for the laugh-of-the-minute ;)
 
mastermags said:
Regardless of all the screaming and letter writing (which is good entertainment, but I doubt will make a difference to a federal judge), hopefully the two previous mega mergers will help pave the way for a smoother SLI than the USAir disaster. After all, there is binding arbitration on that correct? It just hasn't been put into effect.
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You'd think, but there are still issues being shaken out at AA... I think. Things are about settled, and with the award to former TWA pilots being decided, I think for once, things at AA are relative docile. With the East/West thing looming, unless the USAir pilots can put that together (especially considering the call was already made..) things could get nasty again.

Personally, I'm thinking fences will happen. With TWA, there were special allotments made to keep STL open as a domicile with certain pilots having super-seniority there, etc. Given the generally disagreeable nature of the AA pilot group, I'd expect a lot of them to want something similar to protect what's "theirs" while leaving the mess for other pilots in later years.
 
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Kingairer said:
The MOU already has fences put in place.
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When u say fences are referring to the interim flying protections? I asked the union about this and those become null and void once the SLI takes effect. From then on its the fences that will be dictated via arbitration. That's how it was explained to me, at least.
 
I'm hoping for minimal to no fences on the narrow body flying, as well as Airbus bases opening up at legacy AA bases soon. Much like united did with Cal, I believe there was an airbus base in Houston long before SLI.
 
L-16B said:
I'm hoping for minimal to no fences on the narrow body flying, as well as Airbus bases opening up at legacy AA bases soon. Much like united did with Cal, I believe there was an airbus base in Houston long before SLI.
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Much as I hate to crush someone's hopes, I'd expect resistance from the APA on that one. Expect them to be very protectionist of their own and treat the USAir crew as second class citizens.
 
Oh
Firebird2XC said:
Much as I hate to crush someone's hopes, I'd expect resistance from the APA on that one. Expect them to be very protectionist of their own and treat the USAir crew as second class citizens.
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Oh as someone who grew up flying with a TWA pilot, I've already been told to run away as fast as I can. Luckily it will be up to the arbitration panel for better or worse.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Much as I hate to crush someone's hopes, I'd expect resistance from the APA on that one. Expect them to be very protectionist of their own and treat the USAir crew as second class citizens.
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Meanwhile, at Centreport—
milton-stapler1.jpg


(yes, I know such integrations are illegal, but have a laugh anyway.)
 
Third listers are those that were hired after the America west/us airways merger. There are about 500 or so that were hired. Honestly you could even say there is a fourth list made up of the guys hired after the snapshot.

Either way I think it won't be as bad as people say. Judge silver could rule on the
Nic as early as this month and if that happens there won't be an east west issue anymore. At least legally speaking.
 
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