Watching sheep to the slaughter

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PFT is wrong, Brian, because it's traditional in the industry for pilots to be compensated for doing a job. $8/hr is a token amount required to meet state employment regs....they wouldn't pay anything if they could get away with it.

In other words, Gulfstream and TAB express management are exploring new lows on how far the bar can be lowered for the profession. People who buy into this program are doing their part to bring down the career, too. You see it as a cheap way to build multi time. I see it as management taking advantage of pilots and hurting our profession.

What's to stop these schemes from spreading? Next thing you know it will be Delta coming up with a program for DCA grads to pay 50K for 200 hours in a 737-200. Don't think PFT can spread to larger aircraft?

Check this out http://www.simcenter-carolina.com/B727fo.htm
 
8 dollars an Hour is Nothing! I make more than that and I still have No money! I have to live at my parents just to stay alive. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
oh man more acronyms to learn..

sorry for being dumb what does PFT mean (professional flight training?) I'm searching..also this "AS" thing pops up too lol whats the deal with that..? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif (sorry in advance)

back to the subject on that gulfstream class.. ugg I love the uniform and hope to wear one some day but wow how cheap it makes the industry look..and I won't get into the whole $8 an hour mess.. ugg.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif

Matthew
 
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BUT if it was to be $8 an hour and that's it then it would be worth it.


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no it wouldnt be actually. the fact that you are STEALING someones job should come into play here

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Stealing? Call the police!

It's the employer's choice on how to fill the seats. Stealing? No. Money-based discrimination? Probably.

Regards,

JR
 
ok.. I think something got off track here... Brian said he would never DO PFT... that is what I heard... so his "I wouldn't mind" isn't pertaining to PFT.. it's pertaining to making $8/hr to FLY an airplane...

now, THAT i have a problem with because in a sense, your acting like all the starry eyed people out there who have no problem flying for nothing to build time...that's what brings the industry down as far as pay scales go.. .cuz a major airline company like DL or NWA or whoever would LOVE to hire brian and pay him diddly squat to risk his life & the life of the passengers & fly people around on a daily basis...

the only problem brian - you don't get paid for commuting, you don't get paid for being away from home for 4 days or what not...you don't get paid while your on the ground.. the only time you get paid is in the air... and like doug went thru yesterday - he went thru a 12 hr day with only 6 hrs of FLIGHT time... and that's the amount of money you'd be making... so in essence, your willing to fly a plane, willing to be ON THE JOB for 12 hrs but only be paid for 6 hrs total at $8/hr... that means you didn't earn $96 for your day.. you only earned $48 for your day....

$8/hr is LESS than a mcdonalds employee.. have you thought of that?

now the question after this is would you - really - consider flying an airplane for peanuts at the age of 22, where your forced to live at home feeding on taco hell?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Fine, Brian. Go ahead and give the greedy CEOs reason to hope.

See, there are plenty of us who are sick and tired of being bashed by people making 400 times as much as their average worker does as being greedy. And we're sick of them using people like you to drive down our wages and benefits.

But then someone like you, who doesn't understand that it's not easy to pay your bills on $20 an hour, much less $8, comes along and gives them hope.

I probably shouldn't be so harsh on you. How old are you again? Ever have to pay the bills at the beginning of the month?

Once that happens, your tune will change real fast. Then when someone says $8 an hour to fly an airplane is fine, you'll get just as livid as everyone here has.
 
They are wearing uniforms! haha...they are really trying to make themselves feel like they are now "real" airline pilots...Wooohoo!
 
It means Pay-For-Training.

It sucks, but at Gulfstream they do hire pilots of the streets also. To tell you the truth they are short of pilots because most of them have gone to other airlines like, Pinnacle, Colgan and Express Jet believe it or not...

I have a friend of who is going to attend their class next month. I told him not to because it is unethical and supposedly looks bad on your personal record. I referred him to this site, and he did read some post on the subject. His response was very simple and kind of makes sense.

He told me straight out that about 50 students where hired in the last couple of months, He witnessed it, not to mention all the other students that where hired before, close to 300, if not more, between 2003 and 2004 that I witnessed when I attended Gulfstream. The students at Gulfstream are not looking at it as stealing a job, they're looking at it as getting that magical seniority number sooner, and it seems to be working.

I used to go there, did my initial training and DID NOT do the PFT thing. But to tell you the truth, sometimes I look back and wonder if I made the right decision. Watching all my class buddies being hired and Me staying behind really sucks. Maybe in the long run they'll regret doing the PFT thing, but as of right now their flying Jets and I'm here in a Cessna.

By the way, NO I don't work for Gulfstream either...So don't even go there.
 
Yeah, when mommy and daddy are putting the food on the table and making sure you've got a roof over your head, things are different.

Brian, I owe you an apology. But understand that for the people who are paying those bills and need the money to put food on the table and a roof over our heads, hearing someone say, well, I'd work for $8 an hour really gets us steamed.
 
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They are wearing uniforms! haha...they are really trying to make themselves feel like they are now "real" airline pilots...Wooohoo!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I thoght that was pretty cheezy when I was doing my PPL there. Specially the gooffy hat crap. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif
 
eeg

Sadly, there has never been a doubt in my mind that the Gulfstream scheme works for some people. The fact remains that it's bad for the profession, while good for some individuals. I'd make the point to anyone who does the Gulfstream thing they have NO right to complain about the state of the profession for the rest of their careers.
 
thanks eeg that makes sense now.. yeah that's sucky to see your classmates going like that. I know my classmates went the debt route and I haven't (yet..) they're all CFI's now and i'm still sitting here planning x-c's in commercial.. maybe it'll bite them in the future (your classmates and mine with loans) but even I play the "what if" from time to time so I understand how you feel there.

Matthew
again thanks on the pft thing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
of course they dont want to look at it as stealing a job. If they had to actually face the facts that they got ripped off and wonder 10 years later why they are still in debt then it wouldnt be as cool. They also dont want to think that they are actually stealing what should be a paid job. I think they like popping wood everytime they see that shiny new jet. It must look like they smuggle baby carrots out of the market in their pants everytime they hop into the plane to go fly. Actually thinking going to gulfstream helps advance your career isnt quite as correct anymore. You may get on with a regional a bit faster but so what? That really isnt a big difference as far as pay goes and dont worry the majors wont be hiring for a while either. Southwest will be hiring and perhaps a few select others however it takes time anyway to be competitive. Personally I like not having any debt just for a flying career. Its not all that glamorous anyway.
 
Re: eeg

DE727UPS

You are completely right. But you and I know that those will be the first ones to complain. I'd rather have the hard road to the top than the easy way, it just make reaching your goal that much sweeter /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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Brian is 15 or 16. I would have looked at the issue the same way as he does when I was his age.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah that. I know you guys are sick to death of this topic, but also understand that a lot of people have NO idea what kind of politics and games go on in aviation. I know I had no clue, I thought it was a lot more simple than it is. Just be patient and remember that for any one who has dreamed of getting paid to fly, it takes a minute to step back and research and understand what the problem is with getting paid $8 to fly, and why these types of programs are bad. It really doesn't make sense the first few times some one says it's bad and with all the hostility some of you portray towards the person who isn't grapsing it, it will only put them on the defense and make it take even longer to understand. Try taking the emotion out of it and explain it more logically and with a little patience. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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Brian is 15 or 16. I would have looked at the issue the same way as he does when I was his age.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah that. I know you guys are sick to death of this topic, but also understand that a lot of people have NO idea what kind of politics and games go on in aviation. I know I had no clue, I thought it was a lot more simple than it is. Just be patient and remember that for any one who has dreamed of getting paid to fly, it takes a minute to step back and research and understand what the problem is with getting paid $8 to fly, and why these types of programs are bad. It really doesn't make sense the first few times some one says it's bad and with all the hostility some of you portray towards the person who isn't grapsing it, it will only put them on the defense and make it take even longer to understand. Try taking the emotion out of it and explain it more logically and with a little patience. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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You forgot to add.....and use the damn search function on JC.com, where you'll find this horse beaten to a bloody pulp already.
 
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of course they dont want to look at it as stealing a job. If they had to actually face the facts that they got ripped off and wonder 10 years later why they are still in debt then it wouldnt be as cool. They also dont want to think that they are actually stealing what should be a paid job. I think they like popping wood everytime they see that shiny new jet. It must look like they smuggle baby carrots out of the market in their pants everytime they hop into the plane to go fly. Actually thinking going to gulfstream helps advance your career isnt quite as correct anymore. You may get on with a regional a bit faster but so what? That really isnt a big difference as far as pay goes and dont worry the majors wont be hiring for a while either. Southwest will be hiring and perhaps a few select others however it takes time anyway to be competitive. Personally I like not having any debt just for a flying career. Its not all that glamorous anyway.

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Cosmo1999, I wouldn't say that they "Don't want to see it as stealing a job" but that they are blind and don't know any better. I know I didn't, if I knew I would have never attended Gulfstream.
 
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