Want Turbine time? Gotta work for free...

ILS37R said:
Paying your dues is working a flying job with less-than-ideal wages in a less-than-ideal location and with less-than-ideal job conditions.

Night freight in broken-down pistons with minimal IFR equipment is paying your dues. Starving as a CFI with an occasional charter gig is paying your dues. Missionary flying in the back-end of the Third World is paying your dues. Having Uncle Sam tell you where to be--tomorrow--how long you'll be there and not being able to say a thing about it is paying your dues.

Paying your dues is not undermining the whole profession by taking what should be a paying job and doing it for free.
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I agree with this guy. Giving your time away for free when someone can be paid for the work your doing is not paying your dues. It's giving the said employer the idea that people are willing to work for free. What do you think the new norm has become for this employer?
 
gliderboy said:
Standard procedure at our airport. Spend a couple of days a week exchanging labor for free training in the company's cargo ships. After a year or so, move to the left seat for $100~150 per day pay, then after another year or so move to one of the local airlines for a real job and good pay. The contacts you make during the process ensure your progress up the ladder, and before you know it you're making big bucks in big airplanes. (Or, if not big bucks, at least pretty good bucks!)

Seems like a good deal to me. I'm midway through this process now and having a blast! Fun people to work with, cool airplanes to fly and the immense satisfaction of seeing my skills improve as I mature into a professional pilot.

To those pilot-wannabes unwilling to pay these dues I just say: Step aside.
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Definite troll...

1)Free training in cargo airplanes (or I guess, "ships")? Illegal during 135 legs, and most likely not loggable time.

2)The use of the word "ships" when referring to airplanes? Sounds like this guy just got done reading "Stick and Rudder" and is doing his best to sound "professional" on a pilot forum.

3)Local airlines for a "...Real job and good pay.". Either he's just stuck on stupid or is living in a vacuum.

I've noticed a trend lately where a lot of new pilots have a huge chip on their shoulder when they haven't even broken 500 TT. I sure don't understand why...

Regarding the job listed above, PATHETIC! Even in the sewer that is south FL aviation, I was paid $175/day plus per diem to sit right seat in a KA 90 charter op. Working isn't an "internship", it's how you pay your bills, buy food, and put gas in the car.
 
I will admit that I rode my bike to the airport after school (because I wasn't old enough to drive) and would wash airplanes, change tires, change oil, etc in return for flying. No cash compensation at all. I mowed lawns and such for money. So, I feel that I took part in the oldest aviation profession - namely "Gee mister, can I wash your airplane for a lesson". There is a significant difference between what I did and what the ad says and I think people are drawing a parallel between the two because of the common aviation theme of the young kid bartering work for lessons. When you get to the realm of King Air 350's and essential crew it seems to fall apart for me. Just my opinion.
 
WacoFan said:
I will admit that I rode my bike to the airport after school (because I wasn't old enough to drive) and would wash airplanes, change tires, change oil, etc in return for flying. No cash compensation at all. I mowed lawns and such for money. So, I feel that I took part in the oldest aviation profession - namely "Gee mister, can I wash your airplane for a lesson". There is a significant difference between what I did and what the ad says and I think people are drawing a parallel between the two because of the common aviation theme of the young kid bartering work for lessons. When you get to the realm of King Air 350's and essential crew it seems to fall apart for me. Just my opinion.
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I agree Waco...
 
WacoFan said:
I will admit that I rode my bike to the airport after school (because I wasn't old enough to drive) and would wash airplanes, change tires, change oil, etc in return for flying. No cash compensation at all. I mowed lawns and such for money. So, I feel that I took part in the oldest aviation profession - namely "Gee mister, can I wash your airplane for a lesson". There is a significant difference between what I did and what the ad says and I think people are drawing a parallel between the two because of the common aviation theme of the young kid bartering work for lessons. When you get to the realm of King Air 350's and essential crew it seems to fall apart for me. Just my opinion.
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:yeahthat:
 
gliderboy said:
Standard procedure at our airport. Spend a couple of days a week exchanging labor for free training in the company's cargo ships. After a year or so, move to the left seat for $100~150 per day pay, then after another year or so move to one of the local airlines for a real job and good pay. The contacts you make during the process ensure your progress up the ladder, and before you know it you're making big bucks in big airplanes. (Or, if not big bucks, at least pretty good bucks!)

Seems like a good deal to me. I'm midway through this process now and having a blast! Fun people to work with, cool airplanes to fly and the immense satisfaction of seeing my skills improve as I mature into a professional pilot.

To those pilot-wannabes unwilling to pay these dues I just say: Step aside.
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"Big bucks?" You do realize the reason "big bucks" in airplanes doesn't exist much anymore is the exact thing that you're championing: people flying for free. Why should people pay big bucks to a "pilot-wannabe unwilling to pay these dues" when there's someone willing to do it for half the pay, if not none at all? Call me nuts, but I worked hard to get where I am, and I'd like to be compensated for that hard work. I COULD be saying "Sure. I'll be a CA on the CRJ for $20 an hour. After all, in a few years, I'll make the "big bucks" at Delta or Southwest." Next thing you know, guys are CFIing for free just so they can make $10 an hour as a regional FO in a year or two.
 
I cleaned a King Air and a Citation for $15 an hour. And then I sat right seat in the King Air for $350 a day, at 600/30. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to find something like that vs doing it for free. There IS a reason this place wants someone to do 2 jobs for free and it's not a good one. To me, it's not so much about giving away a service, it's about the reasoning behind the offer. Besides, the amount of experience you're going to get from this is not worth doing it for free. I got paid to do it for about 200 hours of flying time and it got me nothing as far as job opportunities are concerned.

I know of more companies that pay well for part-time than the ones that don't. When they don't want to spend the money, they simply stop hiring and use who they have full-time.

If you're going to work for a cheap company like that, recognize that it won't give you much for "props" and give them a counter offer of respectable pay for your work.

"I will clean your airplane and do a great job if you pay me $xx/hour. If you need someone in the right seat, I will gladly help for (xxx)."

Wait for answer, appreciate their time and make sure they have a way to contact you if they need you.

Move along respectfully.
 
gliderboy said:
My, my, so much anger!

A spoiled child gets angry when the world is not what they want it to be.

The adult accepts reality and adjusts his life accordingly.
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An adult steps up and faces reality, then seeks to change what's wrong with it. Being an adult, after all, is about accountability.

In business, doing less work for more money is the goal- efficiency.

There's nothing wrong with a little hard work, but working harder instead of smarter doesn't make you right.. just tired.
 
Well, I was going to let it rest, but here goes:

First of all I've got 500 hours doing scenic tours, so I guess that makes me a professional (sort of). But as most of you know, to get a real job you need night, turbine, multi and instrument--that's where the freight outfit comes in.

We're 135 out, 91 back, so the right seaters get plenty of all the above.

And because it's a SINGLE PlLOT operation, we're not taking away anybody's job by sitting in the right seat!

In addition to the Caravans we've got two Beech 18s (Yes, they leak water all over the instruments when we fly in the rain--what fun!) And because they puke oil all over the place we get to clean them, too!

Our company has a long-established reputation for turning out highly skilled and hard-working pilots. The local airlines know all about us and are happy to hire our pilots.

Old school? You want old school, you should meet our boss and work with him! The crybabies never last more than a couple of weeks.
 
gliderboy said:
First of all I've got 500 hours doing scenic tours, so I guess that makes me a professional (sort of). But as most of you know, to get a real job you need night, turbine, multi and instrument--that's where the freight outfit comes in.

We're 135 out, 91 back, so the right seaters get plenty of all the above.

And because it's a SINGLE PlLOT operation, we're not taking away anybody's job by sitting in the right seat!
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I hate to break it to ya, but there's a very very very strong possibility none of that time is loggable.
 
dasleben said:
I hate to break it to ya, but there's a very very very strong possibility none of that time is loggable.
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While "not loggable", it could give them an in with the company (maybe they had a letter with the FSDO about this). I wouldn't do it for free, however. There still should be compensation of some sort. AirNet had a right seat program in the Baron, that involved logging total time in the right seat during 135 legs. You had to go through the entire training program and pass the PIC 135 ride. This time wouldn't mean much as far as street cred, but it did give you an in with the company. The FAA was involved with this and AirNet had a letter of approval with the FSDO. The pay was very small (about half the first year PIC pay), but it got you in the left seat when you reached 135 IFR PIC mins. From there you could proceed with your career as you wish.
 
This is a BS job. The King Air 350 requires a type rating. If you don't have one you can't log it.

Sadly enough, I am sure someone will take the job for free.

Back in my CFII days the local charter service had a King Air 200 that the local CFI's were co-pilots for. The Company paid for all the meals expenses and gave the co-pilot $50 a day.
 
gliderboy said:
Well, I was going to let it rest, but here goes:

First of all I've got 500 hours doing scenic tours, so I guess that makes me a professional (sort of). But as most of you know, to get a real job you need night, turbine, multi and instrument--that's where the freight outfit comes in.
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Professional is anyone that gets paid, so if you're paid for the tours (and I hope you are), then you're a professional. So, I would actually call scenic tours, instructing, pipeline patrol, survey, etc "real jobs." They're just entry level. As someone said, some of the right seat freight stuff....it's questionable in the loggability department. Which means when you eventually move on to what you call a "real job," ie regionals, Ameriflight or what have you, it's very possible you run up against someone in HR during the interview that won't accept your time.

We're 135 out, 91 back, so the right seaters get plenty of all the above.

And because it's a SINGLE PlLOT operation, we're not taking away anybody's job by sitting in the right seat!
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Is the 135 guy getting paid while you guys 91 it back?
Old school? You want old school, you should meet our boss and work with him! The crybabies never last more than a couple of weeks.
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If they have legit complaints, then this is not something you want to be bragging about.
 
Professional Pilot’s Code

As a Professional pilot, I recognize my obligation...

... To the public which trust its safety to my skill and judgement.

... To my fellow pilots who mutually depend upon me to follow established good practice.

... To my crew members who look at me to exercise my best judgement and leadership.

... To my co-workers who constantly are striving for greater accomplishments and general over-all improvements in aviation.

... To my organization which entrust me, in the conduct of my flights, with moral and economic responsibilities.


Don't know why I felt the need to post this, but those are the principles that I and everyone else should follow for the advancement of aviation and to further the dignity of our profession.
 
PA44-LUV said:
Yeah, that's not flying for free. That's "clean my airplane" and I'll let you sit in the right seat and build turbine time, if I actually let you touch the controls that is....
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I'm willing to bet that is right along the lines of the poster. What a shame, and it would be even more of a shame if someone takes him up on the offer. I'm willing to bet someone will:rolleyes:.
 
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