It pretty much boils down to a PIC decision--one of my primary instructors is friends with the CFI who's plane got flipped by the Dreamlifter's wake on final to BFI, and he gave me a pretty good description of the incident. I'm definitely a believer in the dangers of wake turbulance. I think most, if not all, of us are frustrated by people not knowing the ability to waive the wake turbulence hold when it's obviously not a safety issue. If I'm at an intersection and something like a Global Express or 737 is taking off, I'm staying put. But, if there's a King Air at the end of the runway, followed by a 747, I'd much rather waive the hold and get off after the King Air and before the heavy so that I can be well out of the danger area for the 747.
Waive the Wake Turbulence
- Thread starter whysoserial
- Start date
I will only waive a "Wake Turbulence delay" if I'm sure I won't fly through the preceding plane's wake turbulence no matter the size. I've gotten caught in some 73 wake turbulence before that caused me to go-around. Now we can usually out climb anything that will present a problem so it's nothing to really worry about. Any Starcheck pilot definitely knows the risks of wake turbulence.
I guess the point is you can mitigate the risk of wake turbulence by other means then just time. Any pilot that knowingly flies through wake turbulence should get their ticket pulled.
I guess the point is you can mitigate the risk of wake turbulence by other means then just time. Any pilot that knowingly flies through wake turbulence should get their ticket pulled.
Part of being a professional is looking out for not only yourself, but others around you. Controllers are forced to make all small planes wait before taking off after heavy aircraft (which can be waived) no matter what. As pilots, we know that the runway isn't going to be littered with wake turbulence 100% of the time after a heavy jet takes off.
If you've ever seen a 747 take off, you'll notice it takes almost the whole runway to get off. I saw one take off at SFO a few months ago and was afraid of it going off the runway. Unless theres a hella headwind, you'll be fine to takeoff behind that in a C152 as long as you get off quick and make your turn early (and didn't do an intersection take off).
whysoserial
New Member
Well, I am glad to see that at least there are some people who know that they have the option to waive it.
And just clarify again, you cannot waive it if the traffic was a B757 or a Heavy. No way around it.
And LawnGnome is correct. It's all about weights.
Here's a good one too: A Saab takes off full length...a Brasilia is ready at an intersection. Similar type aircraft. Does the Brasilia have to wait 3 minutes?
Yep.
A Saab is a "Large". A Brasilia is a "Small Pus" which means it's a small.
Would you be concerned with wake turbulence? I wouldn't.
And just clarify again, you cannot waive it if the traffic was a B757 or a Heavy. No way around it.
And LawnGnome is correct. It's all about weights.
Here's a good one too: A Saab takes off full length...a Brasilia is ready at an intersection. Similar type aircraft. Does the Brasilia have to wait 3 minutes?
Yep.
A Saab is a "Large". A Brasilia is a "Small Pus" which means it's a small.
Would you be concerned with wake turbulence? I wouldn't.
whysoserial
New Member
Unfortunately it cannot be waived.
From the bible.
b. The 3-minute interval is not required when:
1. A pilot has initiated a request to deviate from that interval unless the preceding departing aircraft is a heavy aircraft/B757.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
That professinal *courtesy* never, ever takes precedence over ensuring the safe operation of my craft.
You're free to sacrifice whatever safety margin you have in your aircraft to whomever you please.
As for me, I'll continue to exercise my judgment as an aviator, even if the guy behind me in the stack has to wait an extra three minutes.
No one in this thread has ever said you should waive the delay if there is a real possibility of a wake turbulence issue. You do know about wake turbulence, don't you? You know sometimes it's going to be there, sometimes it isn't going to be there. Those times when it isn't going to be there, such as the King Air example, you don't have to wait. You can waive the delay. This isn't rocket surgery.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
No, never heard of it. What is it?
Ian_J
Hubschrauber Flieger
I'm speechless. You suck.
(Total sarcasm, people.)
Good on you Hacker for staying professional after this tidbit. I can't believe "Butt" is preaching professionalism to an Air Force Officer. That's some "internet balls" right there.
:yeahthat:
BajtheJino
I'm looking at you.
Fly freight that requires you to fill out a form anytime you're late for not getting off on time without a weather delay. I believe I have waived every wake turbulence I've been issued. MD's, 73's, RJ's and have never had a problem. Ask for an early turn and know the wind direction. Pretty simple really. When I ask for the turn, 99% of the time I get it and before the tire is off the ground I'm in the turn. No problems.
Adhering to the schedule is what gave me 99.9% ontime rating with a perfect safety record.
Wake Turbulence does not = Death.
Wake turbulence requires common sense.
:yeahthat:
Butt, seriously, how does one go from (1.5 years ago) asking about what the military has for you to questioning an Air Force fighter pilot about his aeronautical knowledge?
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
When I get full length 17R at DFW, I can sometimes supprise the tower guys.
"Cleared for take off, heading 130. Do you want that inside or outside the tower cab?"
I can seriously be 090 before terminal A. Love the Caravan!
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I took the comment as more along the lines of, "you DO remember your business partner Marseillius Wallace, don't you?"
Of course I know what it is, and I'm sure he knows I do, too. I think his point was that wake turb is not some big boogeyman that's going to kick your arse if you look at it wrong...and he's correct. It is a threat, but if you understand what it is and how it works you can work around it to mitigate the threat.
My point was that I've had plenty of interaction with wake turbulence, and based on that experience I NEVER scoff it. I have been in some damn large and heavy aircraft that have been tossed around by the jetwash of much smaller aircraft. I have been in holy-crap angles of bank down low because of wake turbulence -- fighters in formations regularly land 3,000 feet behind one another, and when you're the 4th guy down final, that is some seriously disturbed air. In turning dogfights you can actually see the wake turbulence coming off a fighter in a high G turn, and you can watch what it does in the wind...so you learn to predict where it's going to go so you don't hit it.
I also still fail to see why any aviator (again, excluding Lifeguard and the like) is on such a tight schedule that they'd be unable to simply wait the recommended time for wake turbulence dissipation. Seriously. Late takeoffs? Surely companies have a +/- tolerance for their takeoff times that account for delays that aren't anything to do with you. Even if they don't, and you have to "fill out paperwork"...well, if you ask me, that's better than your wife having to sign some paperwork to claim your body at the morgue later on that evening.
Again, I operate in an environment with EXTREMELY tight schedules with very precise times to be at very precise places...and my schedule allows for 5 minutes of slop here and there that, if I lose it because I have to wait for something like wake turbulence, IFR clearance, or penalty vector from ATC, I can still make up the time to get where I need to be on time. Within seconds.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
You can, some of us can't.
The only place I can make up time is within 10 miles of the airport. Getting in and out quickly is the only place I can make the difference between getting to my destination of time, and being 30 minutes late. I've learned every dirty tirck in the book to get in and out of DFW quickly.
I highly respect the danger posed by wake turbullence, and I stay well away. I know when wake turbulence is going to be a hazard, and when it is not. However I also know that the rules ATC is required to follow do not apply to all scenerios. If I can ask ATC to waive a restricition (which is allowed under the rules) I will.
I apply ORM to the mission and take whatever steps I need to in order to get the job done.
