Waive the Wake Turbulence

whysoserial

New Member
Anyone ever do it? Anyone ever heard of it? Anyone?

It's been a few years since I've taught people to fly and before that there has never been a sentence in a book about it. Ya, they teach you how to avoid it but that's all I've seen.

I've seen too many pilots get hosed with wake turbulence delays and they have no idea there's an out. They have no idea they are getting hosed. They sit holding short of the runway for a predetermined amount of time burning time...fuel...money. Most of them have no idea how long they have to wait, they just accept it.

Yeah, it's not always prudent to waive the wake turbulence but sometimes it's a waste of time and the rules say we need to make you wait.

Assume we're in a C172 or similar aircraft.

If a Heavy or B757 has departed a runway you aren't going to go for at least 2 minutes from the full length, 3 minutes if you are at an intersection. You also can't waive it. You can ask, but you won't get it.

Now, if you are departing an intersection (at least 500ft or more from the end of the runway) and you see a little 'ol King Air depart from the full length, you are going to sit for 3 minutes. That's a waste.

Waive it. We want you gone as much as you want you gone. What gets me is some of these folks are pissed that they have to wait.

Anyways, if it's not a Heavy or B757 and you think you can avoid it, waive the delay...we'll get back to you with a shorter delay only because we are stunned that someone is actually asking for it.

Oh and a little side note. When we deny your request for an intersection or opposite direction, sometimes we are doing you a favor. Take a look and see what is about to depart full length or what has just departed. Don't get grumpy at us.

Anyways, if you already knew this, feel free to reply with the "DUH!" comments or "it's not worth it" or "what's the rush?" or anything like that. I was more curious if people are even aware of this little nugget.
 

LawnGnome

Well-Known Member
Also, a lot of controllers do not apply this rule that could also help the pilots out. In order to do this, you have to be a radar controller and radar I.D. the aircraft once they get airborne...but here is the rule:

e. The minima in para 5-5-4, Minima, may be applied in lieu of the 2 minute requirement in subpara f. When para 5-5-4, Minima, are applied, ensure that the appropriate radar separation exists at or prior to the time an aircraft becomes airborne when taking off behind a heavy jet/B757.

Here is subpara f:

f. Separate IFR/VFR aircraft taking off behind a heavy jet/B757 departure by 2 minutes, when departing:

Now here is para 5-5-4:

5-5-4. MINIMA
Separate aircraft by the following minima:
a. Broadband Radar System or Digital Terminal Automation System (DTAS):
NOTE-
Includes single sensor long range radar mode.
1. When less than 40 miles from the antenna- 3 miles.
2. When 40 miles or more from the antenna- 5 miles.
3. TERMINAL. For single sensor ASR-9 with Mode S, when less than 60 miles from the antenna - 3 miles.
NOTE-
Wake turbulence procedures specify increased separation minima required for certain classes of aircraft because of the possible effects of wake turbulence.
b. Stage A/DARC, MEARTS Mosaic Mode, Terminal Mosaic/Multi-Sensor Mode:
NOTE-
Mosaic/Multi-Sensor Mode combines radar input from 2 to 16 sites into a single picture utilizing a mosaic grid composed of radar sort boxes.
1. Below FL 600- 5 miles.
2. At or above FL 600- 10 miles.
3. For areas meeting all of the following conditions:
(a) Radar site adaptation is set to single sensor.
(b) Significant operational advantages can be obtained.
(c) Within 40 miles of the antenna.
(d) Below FL 180.
(e) Facility directives specifically define the area where the separation can be applied. Facility directives may specify 3 miles.
[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7210.3, Para 8-2-1, Single Site Coverage Stage A Operations.
FAAO JO 7210.3, Para 11-8-15, Single Site Coverage ATTS Operations.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2] [/SIZE]
4. When transitioning from terminal to en route control, 3 miles increasing to 5 miles or greater, provided:
(a) The aircraft are on diverging routes/courses, and/or
(b) The leading aircraft is and will remain faster than the following aircraft; and
(c) Separation constantly increasing and the first center controller will establish 5 NM or other appropriate form of separation prior to the aircraft departing the first center sector; and
(d) The procedure is covered by a letter of agreement between the facilities involved and limited to specified routes and/or sectors/positions.
c. MEARTS Mosaic Mode:
NOTE-
1. Sensor Mode displays information from the radar input of a single site.
2. Procedures to convert MEARTS Mosaic Mode to MEARTS Sensor Mode at each PVD/MDM will be established by facility directive.
1. When less than 40 miles from the antenna- 3 miles.
2. When 40 miles or more from the antenna- 5 miles.
d. STARS Multi-Sensor Mode:
NOTE-
1. In Multi-Sensor Mode, STARS displays targets as filled and unfilled boxes, depending upon the target's distance from the radar site providing the data. Since there is presently no way to identify which specific site is providing data for any given target, utilize separation standards for targets 40 or more miles from the antenna.
2. When operating in STARS Single Sensor Mode, if TRK appears in the data block, handle in accordance with para 5-3-7, Identification Status, subpara b, and take appropriate steps to establish nonradar separation.
3. TRK appears in the data block whenever the aircraft is being tracked by a radar site other than the radar currently selected. Current equipment limitations preclude a target from being displayed in the single sensor mode; however, a position symbol and data block, including altitude information, will still be displayed. Therefore, low altitude alerts shall be provided in accordance with para 2-1-6, Safety Alert.
WAKE TURBULENCE APPLICATION
e. Separate aircraft operating directly behind, or directly behind and less than 1,000 feet below, or following an aircraft conducting an instrument approach by:
NOTE-
1. When applying wake turbulence separation criteria, directly behind means an aircraft is operating within 2500 feet of the flight path of the leading aircraft over the surface of the earth.
2. Consider parallel runways less than 2,500 feet apart as a single runway because of the possible effects of wake turbulence.
1. Heavy behind heavy- 4 miles.
2. Large/heavy behind B757- 4 miles.
3. Small behind B757- 5 miles.
4. Small/large behind heavy - 5 miles.
WAKE TURBULENCE APPLICATION
f. TERMINAL. In addition to subpara e, separate an aircraft landing behind another aircraft on the same runway, or one making a touch-and-go, stop-and-go, or low approach by ensuring the following minima will exist at the time the preceding aircraft is over the landing threshold:
NOTE-
Consider parallel runways less than 2,500 feet apart as a single runway because of the possible effects of wake turbulence.
1. Small behind large- 4 miles.
2. Small behind B757- 5 miles.
3. Small behind heavy- 6 miles.
g. TERMINAL. 2.5 nautical miles (NM) separation is authorized between aircraft established on the final approach course within 10 NM of the landing runway when operating in single sensor slant range mode and aircraft remains within 40 miles of the antenna and:
1. The leading aircraft's weight class is the same or less than the trailing aircraft;
2. Heavy aircraft and the Boeing 757 are permitted to participate in the separation reduction as the trailing aircraft only;
3. An average runway occupancy time of 50 seconds or less is documented;
4. CTRDs are operational and used for quick glance references;
[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 3-1-9, Use of Tower Radar Displays.[/SIZE]
5. Turnoff points are visible from the control tower.



 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
Is anyone really in such a hurry that they can't wait a couple minutes for the turbulence to dissipate? What is the 'hosed' by waiting that you mention?

I'm in a business where we yardstick timeline success in 1/10ths of seconds for bombs hitting targets and the like. Taking off on time is extremely important -- but it's less important than making sure I don't end up inverted at 50' because of wake turbulence.

I can't think of any compelling reason, outside of a Lifeguard flight, that someone in a GA aircraft would HAVE to go so bad that waiting a minute or two would be unbearable.
 

pwttogfk

Well-Known Member
One of my frustrations is waiting in line at an intersection behind folks who can't figure out that a King Air probably won't swat their little weekend flier out of the air. Can I legally drop a hint by saying that I'll "waive a wake turbulence delay if required," to hint to the pilot in front of me that it would be a good idea to do so? I've bit my tongue so far and just watched the $ go with the hobbes meter.
 

LawnGnome

Well-Known Member
I would say you can request to deviate from the wake turbulence hold, no matter what your position in line for departure is. The controller always has the option to improvise and change runway assignments to help a/c get around these rules...at my airport we are able to do that constantly and provide the best service to all types of a/c!
 

Gonzo

Well-Known Member
I guess I must suck as a pilot because I have had a G-III and a 737 rock my world. Don't mess with wake if you are in a light GA plane.
 

whysoserial

New Member
Is anyone really in such a hurry that they can't wait a couple minutes for the turbulence to dissipate? What is the 'hosed' by waiting that you mention?

I'm in a business where we yardstick timeline success in 1/10ths of seconds for bombs hitting targets and the like. Taking off on time is extremely important -- but it's less important than making sure I don't end up inverted at 50' because of wake turbulence.

I can't think of any compelling reason, outside of a Lifeguard flight, that someone in a GA aircraft would HAVE to go so bad that waiting a minute or two would be unbearable.
They get screwed because they think they are going to save time by going to an intersection and get in front of these departures. When they check on ready to go, the timer is at 2 minutes maybe due to a past departure. Next guy is ready with a flow time...off he goes, 3 minutes resets. It adds up sometimes. Now if he waived it, we'll give him a cautionary and off he goes with an early turn out.

It depends on the situation for sure, but it can be helpful.
 

whysoserial

New Member
I guess I must suck as a pilot because I have had a G-III and a 737 rock my world. Don't mess with wake if you are in a light GA plane.
Well, besides you taking it personal...that's a G3 and a B737. Don't do it if it's obviously a hazard or you have no "out" or taking off a considerable distance down the runway. I think I made it clear with my King Air example. Maybe request an early turn out? Offset upwind? Plenty of options out there including the wait.
 

whysoserial

New Member
One of my frustrations is waiting in line at an intersection behind folks who can't figure out that a King Air probably won't swat their little weekend flier out of the air. Can I legally drop a hint by saying that I'll "waive a wake turbulence delay if required," to hint to the pilot in front of me that it would be a good idea to do so? I've bit my tongue so far and just watched the $ go with the hobbes meter.
You can request it and if there is room to get around the aircraft, we'll clear you for takeoff. If the other guy picks up on it, good for them.

It seems pilots can do anything these days with no problems. Example: detailed taxi instructions we are required to give you now. We give the route...you don't follow it...no problem, you get a new route...don't follow that one...no problem. As long as we give you a detailed route! It's only a pilot deviation should you get onto a runway without permission which also matter before this new procedure. So....
 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
Again, still trying to find a rational explanation why somebody can't wait.

People are seriously jonesing about 1/10th on the Hobbs -- up to 6 minutes? What's the rush?
 

aloft

New Member
There was a Cape Air 402 that waived it awhile back...if memory serves, he was flipped over during his takeoff roll, came to a stop upside down.
 

USMCmech

Well-Known Member
Again, still trying to find a rational explanation why somebody can't wait.
I always CAN wait, however, there are numerous cases where I don't need to.

Example,

Say a 747 took off 18L at DFW, I am waiting at nearly the full length of 18R to take off in my 208. Tower will make me wait for 3-5 minutes for wake turbulence. However, as we all should know there is zero wake turbulence up untill the spot where he rotated nose up. I know from much experiance that I can take off, and turn right well before that point.

Or suppose I'm waiting out the wake turbulence of a Citation. Which as a turbojet must be put into the same catagory as a 737. When in fact the wake turbulence from a citation is negligable.


In a 208 (and most other light aircraft) the only time saved in the trip is the time in close to the airport. I can't do anything about my cruise speed, but I can get in and out of the terminal area quickly. This is also the reason why I make super short aproaches, keep airspeed readlined down the ILS, and all the other dirty tricks I know to hurry on my way.
 

nosehair

Well-Known Member
Again, still trying to find a rational explanation why somebody can't wait.

People are seriously jonesing about 1/10th on the Hobbs -- up to 6 minutes? What's the rush?
You are thinking in terms of 'self'.

Think of a larger picture of 6, or 8, maybe 10 or more airplanes lined up for a departure with good cross-winds and conditions that absolutly negate the 'wait' period...
 

LawnGnome

Well-Known Member
Or suppose I'm waiting out the wake turbulence of a Citation. Which as a turbojet must be put into the same catagory as a 737. When in fact the wake turbulence from a citation is negligable.
For ATC purposes...you flying in a 208 is an a/c that weighs 12,500lbs or less, you are considered a small....we have to provide wake turbulence separation to you departing behind any aircraft that weights more than 12,500lbs by 3 minutes from an intersection. So that is why citations fit into the same category as a 737. Then we have to provide additional separation when a heavy or 757 is involved, because they have their own category.
 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
You are thinking in terms of 'self'.

Think of a larger picture of 6, or 8, maybe 10 or more airplanes lined up for a departure with good cross-winds and conditions that absolutly negate the 'wait' period...
Yeah, I'm thinking in terms of "self" because I'm the one who would end up inverted at 50' because of the wake turb.

Sorry, those guys behind me don't give a crap about my bottom line, nor my safety. They can wait until it's safe for me to go.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
Keep in mind too that a lot of those GA guys are paying for the aircraft based on hobbs time. Sure, that's not a good reason to waive safety, but sacrificing safety in the name of cost savings happens all the time in the GA world, in the 121/135 world and in the military world.
 

USMCmech

Well-Known Member
Sorry, those guys behind me don't give a crap about my bottom line, nor my safety. They can wait until it's safe for me to go.
ORM?


If I decide that the wake turbulence in negligable and/or can be avoided on clib out. Then I'll tell ATC that I'll waive the seperation.
 

mjg407

Well-Known Member
I wonder of all the guys saying they would waive the wake turbulence, how many have hit wake turbulence. I was in a 100K lb airplane and got rocked by a C-141 on approach while I was in the VFR pattern. Sure, if I'm at an airport with a 15 knot crosswind, and I can take off and turn upwind after rotation, you will be safe, but sure as heck wouldn't try it in calm winds or a quartering tailwind. My little cheetah won't outclimb a 737 off the deck.
 
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