VMC circling restriction on ATP: How to remove?

C150J said:
Wheels -

Demonstrating a circling approach in a Seminole wasn't that bad... I recommend you do it that way.
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Sounds like the voice of experience :). Did you just rent a seminole for an hour or two and go up with an MEI to get proficient again, then call a DPE and schedule a time? I'm kinda outta my element here, every training event I've ever done was "structured" in some way.
 
granlistillo said:
Does that take the restriction off his type as well as the ATP? I would guess that would leave the restriction on the type as it was not demonstrated in a type ride. I could be wrong on that. Some of these companies don't want any restrictions on the type.
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They said as long as the ATP is unrestricted they would consider me. But you are correct, the type would still have it, which isn't a bid deal for me. I just want an unrestricted ATP.
 
Pilotdude3407 said:
MW,

I don't know why all the airlines have gone to this CIRC APPR VMC ONLY junk. Why would they not want us to be trained and typed in that. I mean, our OPS SPECS says we can't do it, that should be enough.

For example, you and I are trained to CAT II mins, yet we aren't allowed to shoot CAT II approaches....per OPS SPECS so why do we do it? I know there are a couple of other things as well I can't remember so why is this any different. Just find the highest circling approach mins at any airport we go to and have us do it and that will be good enough.

Just my two cents.
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$$, just another thing to train for I bet...

Hell on my type ride things were so condensed I did the no flap/no guidance landing single engine to check two boxes at once!

Plus I'm not sure how you'd really demonstrate a circle in a sim, even a Cat-D.
 
wheelsup said:
Plus I'm not sure how you'd really demonstrate a circle in a sim, even a Cat-D.
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Easy.

ILS 4R into JFK CTL 31R.

The same as any other circling approach. Level at Circling MDA or higher (if able...I don't like going all the way down unless I have to - that's what she said), turn 45 degrees off the inbound course (which sets you up on a left base) and count for 20-ish seconds (at my typical Cat C circling speeds...less for faster planes and don't forget to factor wind. Longer times for going into the wind and shorter times if you're downwind.) then make your left turn to re-enter the left base. Runway out your left front window. Drop the final flaps and roll the trim a few clicks nose down, run the before landing checklist, continue your turn base to final and...........that's usually when you get "OH MY GOD THERE'S SOMETHING ON THE RUNWAY!!!!!!! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!!!!!!!!" and you execute the missed approach just as an engine fails.

-mini
 
I guess its just me but there's something odd about not being able to see the runway when doing a circle in a sim to prove you can in fact do a circle.
 
wheelsup said:
Sounds like the voice of experience :). Did you just rent a seminole for an hour or two and go up with an MEI to get proficient again, then call a DPE and schedule a time? I'm kinda outta my element here, every training event I've ever done was "structured" in some way.
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I actually did my ATP outside of work, and that including a circling maneuver. If I were you, I would see if a school would rent you 3-5 hours of Seminole time and then speak to a DPE about testing.
 
wheelsup said:
I guess its just me but there's something odd about not being able to see the runway when doing a circle in a sim to prove you can in fact do a circle.
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...you can. At least I can. Maybe not the landing runway at times, but I can see the airport for a reference point.

-mini
 
higney85 said:
Do you have an SIC type? I know every place is different but at my current 121 the SIC type has the restriction but the PIC type removes it.
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Nope. My PIC type has it.

I talked to a couple of places that do the 737 types since I'm looking into doing that sometime next year, ya know, just in case. They said I could kill two birds with one stone: get the 737 type and get the circling restriction removed from the ATP. I THINK it would still be there for the CRJ type, though.
 
Flight Safety in Houston will remove the restriction for EMB-145 type rated pilots. IIRC, it costs $2,000, but if you find a partner you can split the costs 50-50. If an overseas employer required it as a condition of employment, I would tell them to pay for it or "no thanks".
 
Why not add on a ASEL ATP? Wouldn't that give you an unrestricted ATP? It would sure be cheaper than renting a twin, and it will remove your ASEL limitation at the same time.
 
wheelsup said:
Plus I'm not sure how you'd really demonstrate a circle in a sim, even a Cat-D.
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As Polar said, it is very mechanical and scripted... For this portion of my type ride, the instructor basically said, "Put on your suspension of disbelief hat.... for the circle to land you do this... fly on the radial to x.x DME, turn to this heading... you'll see the runway out the left window there. then you lose it at this point... fly straight for 5 more seconds, use that line on the ground for reference for the turn... "

For the PIC type ride we used the VOR 14 circle to land 1L at ICT. For the SIC type ride we used the LOC 22L circle to land 31L at JFK -- so the appropriate pilot could look out the window in the correct direction for the circle to land. But the whole setup was the same, you follow the script and if you can keep your altitude under control (the examiner/instructor gave us 50 feet at MDA before you went back up in the clouds) you passed the circle.

I never really thought about having the VMC circle restiction on the ATP - I thought it was only on the type type of thing. I guess I am lucky that my employer had us do the circle at mins, so I got the ATP without the VMC circle restriction.
 
Alchemy said:
Flight Safety in Houston will remove the restriction for EMB-145 type rated pilots. IIRC, it costs $2,000, but if you find a partner you can split the costs 50-50. If an overseas employer required it as a condition of employment, I would tell them to pay for it or "no thanks".
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I have a feeling the overseas employer would take the "no thanks" since there's tons of guys without the restriction that just got their rating in a Seminole at ATP.
 
Just a FYI

If you are looking at a job overseas for a specific type (CL64 or whatever), the TYPE needs to have no restriction on it, not just the ATP.

Something to think about.
 
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