V1, Rotate- and the jet won't. You're the FO..
- Thread starter Firebird2XC
- Start date
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Okay, for the sake of the original conversation- You're the FO in this situation. The CA is on the controls. You scream past V1 and the plane doesn't rotate. The CA continues to dingle with the yoke. How do you approach the situation?
I'm asking because "sit there with a dumb look on my face" isn't a viable answer- but a lot of newer FOs are doing exactly that. This is the sort of scenario where regardless of how much authority you wield in the situation, you're leaving your CA hanging. Either the CA is applying the wrong solution, doesn't have any solution, or some other X factor is in play.
What if the plane in question never rotates? What if it did? There are a number of variables in play here, and if the FOs out there aren't thinking about these things, when they actually happen to you, they'll bite you in the ass. The Feds go after FOs just as readily as they do CAs these days. Or so I hear, anyhow.
So let's say, in this hypothetical situation.. the FO is a new hire that sits there dumbfounded and offers no input, advice, or assistance. Just about anything would be better that that. Even if you start reading out airspeeds and runway length remaining.
I'm asking because "sit there with a dumb look on my face" isn't a viable answer- but a lot of newer FOs are doing exactly that. This is the sort of scenario where regardless of how much authority you wield in the situation, you're leaving your CA hanging. Either the CA is applying the wrong solution, doesn't have any solution, or some other X factor is in play.
What if the plane in question never rotates? What if it did? There are a number of variables in play here, and if the FOs out there aren't thinking about these things, when they actually happen to you, they'll bite you in the ass. The Feds go after FOs just as readily as they do CAs these days. Or so I hear, anyhow.
So let's say, in this hypothetical situation.. the FO is a new hire that sits there dumbfounded and offers no input, advice, or assistance. Just about anything would be better that that. Even if you start reading out airspeeds and runway length remaining.
The Feds thing is best case. Worst case, the FO rides silently to his death.........first on scene to it as a matter of fact, along with the Captain, followed shortly thereafter by everybody else onboard....
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
What I would do is simple: call abort, and if he doesn't abort, then slam on the brakes and execute the abort myself. He's not taking me silently to my death. We can talk about the intricacies of captain's authority right after I ensure that he doesn't kill me.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
ATN_Pilot said:
This.
Common sense guys.
Heat of the moment, you really gonna be that idle log instead of exercising the authority you do hold?
What a passive lot some of us would be as we ride ourselves to our death...silently...
I really hope that beyond the 190hr passive wonders of years ago (with no prior command experience in ANY career) we never see such passive gelatin molds in our craft again.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Well, that .... might just be... hypothetically.. what did happen. The FO sat there and blinked. The hypothetical airplane was trimmed nose up outside the takeoff range and eventually rotated and flew without further incident to its destination and things went on more or less as usual.
... and yes, hypothetically the Feds were pissed. I'm not sure what happened to the FO, but the CA narrowly kept his license. He's still a pilot. Hypothetically.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Wow.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Yeah. Some of the numbers in the story were a little different, but I did the math.. and things look worse when you do that. My best guess, you're burning about 4000 feet of runway in a loaded jet prior to reaching V1. As I hear it, the abort was not an option because there was only 3000 feet remaining. Whut? What happened to that other 6000 feet? Of course, this is all hearsay.
It's not like anybody did it and told me about it or anything.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
So let's play the devil's advocate here, and examine where you might make logic errors where we might all make a similar mistake.
1) Go-Fever. The ever popular 'mission mentality'.
2) Procedural Adherence. "We don't train to abort after V1."
3) (your ideas here..)
1) Go-Fever. The ever popular 'mission mentality'.
2) Procedural Adherence. "We don't train to abort after V1."
3) (your ideas here..)
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
I want to be very clear that even though Boeing says that it's the captain's decision, an extreme event such as the one in this thread shouldn't stop any FO from calling the reject him/herself.
One even easier than those; the refusal to believe that anything is truly wrong, because of the ramifications of what that might mean and necessitate. The "just give it a few more seconds" mentality of "wanting to be truly sure" that there's a problem before taking any action out of the ordinary.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
If someone can't get a regional jet stopped in 3,000 feet, then they're doing it wrong.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I'd also like to add something that hasn't been brought up (or I've missed it).
99% of the time on the canadian space shuttle, even if you're taking off from Edwards AFB, V1=Vr.
Actually that's one thing I don't like about the performance data we get from the ACARS. When we land, it tells us how much runway we need legally, and how much we will actually use. But when we take off it just says "here are your speeds". I'd much rather know how close to the end of the runway when I'm accelerating through 140 kts vs. how close I am to running off going 3.
Point being, in a lot of situations, V1 is an artificial number. You MAY have more room left.
99% of the time on the canadian space shuttle, even if you're taking off from Edwards AFB, V1=Vr.
Actually that's one thing I don't like about the performance data we get from the ACARS. When we land, it tells us how much runway we need legally, and how much we will actually use. But when we take off it just says "here are your speeds". I'd much rather know how close to the end of the runway when I'm accelerating through 140 kts vs. how close I am to running off going 3.
Point being, in a lot of situations, V1 is an artificial number. You MAY have more room left.
I mentioned that early on here that with many long runways, the two are often equal. I see that at TUS/DMA every single day, what with the actual runway length available.
Very true. And both knowing that fact, as well as knowing what to do with that fact when you might need to, are both paramount I agree.
I'm guessing you don't actually get a Critical Field Length then? How do you know if you're even legal to take off on a runway then, if you don't have a computed "runway required" number?
Guess this is one of the biggest things between the military and civilian flying... I have an abundance of numbers that I don't even ever use. CFL is definitely one that gets looked at, however.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Gotcha. Reading has never been my strong suit. I'm more of a pictures guy.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
The way our system works is its all based on weight. It'll give us a maximum weight for takeoff (assuming you take off, lose an engine, etc) that is often well above our structural takeoff weight. Then it gives us our V speeds.
If the runway isn't long enough (or you have insufficient climb gradient) it will say "runway unavailable" and (if possible) what you can do to be able to go, such as remove 300 lbs.
Since you say that V1 typically is equal to Vr, I guess I need to ask... Exactly what is the definition you all use for V1?
Running my data for the E-6, V1 is RARELY equal to Vr, unless I have a very stiff crosswind driving my V1 through the roof.
Oh its no biggie....the thread is so huge, there's likely alot missed. Its all good info to bring up again as a reminder, as it relates huge to the subject. So Im glad you did.