Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Ganas
US Pilot Moving to Europe
Ganas
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Only going by browsing PPRUNE over the years. It seems they work a lot for a whole lot less pay. Our pay and QOL (especially in the lost pandemic contract cycle) arefar greater than over there.
Beaker
Well-Known Member
I accept the unanimous report that this is the case. I am curious how things got to be that way. What's the cautionary tale?
Skåning
Well-Known Member
Up until the 1990s, each country had its own national flag carrier that was financed by the government. Obviously serving diplomatic and national interest. Then there was a push to privatize them and all that bloat and inefficiency starting to get cut. Contracts got slashed and fleets shrunk. It opened up the door for low-cost carriers that continued to undercut the higher paying jobs.
There’s also very little collective bargaining from country to country or even base to base at the same airline. B and C scales sadly exist and scope clauses are either very weak or blatantly disregarded.
Finally, since their requirements to get hired as a cadet or with very low time, the barrier to entry is very low for pilots. So if you’re not willing to work for low wages and seasonal schedules, they just get somebody who is.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Well stated. And the concept of regional labor doesn’t really exist. There are few carriers with CRJs and ERJs as an entry level job. For the most part, cadets go from flight training straight to an A320 / B737.
ahw01
Well-Known Member
Much smaller aviation industries. much more public transport, licensing which requires 13 (hand)written exams at Comm/ATPL level.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Because testing the crap out of people with written exams on arcane, little used knowledge is a sure way to check for aircraft handling skills and good decision making.
This is a hallmark of a teaching/evaluation process that is way light on rigor because proper training costs money. Facilities costs money, equipment costs money, and experienced people who know WTF they’re doing costs money.
But there is plenty of hand waving to make it seem legit. Just fill out some [oversight body] paperwork and it’s the same, right?
Reminds me of the whole, if you’ll pardon the pun, hyperventilation that went on about the number of ventilators during the apocalypse. Some dusty old relic from the Crimean War, long salvaged for parts, counts the same as a state of the art unit in the US because some Euroland functionary trusted what someone else wrote down.
I love it when people try to compare processes because “hey, the paperwork checks out”
ahw01
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately an approach which UK, EU, Australia, South Africa subscribe to. Plenty of dual FAA/EASA schools in the US. Not so in Europe.
CFIT99
because of the implication...
I can only speak for a buddy of mine that played this game...Irish citizenship, moved to the US when he was 10, went back for University (free btw) in Ireland but came back here for flight training, during the 08 time frame went back and spent a butt load of time and money to convert FAA to EASA (JAA back then), flew for several European carriers but came back to the states in 2015 and is a WB FO for AA, commutes from Dublin. and makes more than an Air Lingus 78 CA's...also him and his family healthcare and college are covered....
moral of the story: US has its problems...airline pilot pay (especially among the rest of the pilot world) isn't one of them.
moral of the story: US has its problems...airline pilot pay (especially among the rest of the pilot world) isn't one of them.
Skåning
Well-Known Member
It’s been pathetic over there, many European airlines make new hires pay for their own type ratings too. Also it’s been all too common legacies take mainline planes and give them to the regional (to operate at a lower cost).
Swiss literally delivered new 777s to their regional. Lufthansa gave their regional A340s. Iberia and SAS made “express” subsidiaries and transferred mainline A320s.
It’s no wonder pilots make way less there. They’re willing to undercut one another.
I did all those dumb exams and converted my FAA ATP to an EASA (UK) ATPL. Applied to a few places and saw some even charged you to interview! NOPE
Swiss literally delivered new 777s to their regional. Lufthansa gave their regional A340s. Iberia and SAS made “express” subsidiaries and transferred mainline A320s.
It’s no wonder pilots make way less there. They’re willing to undercut one another.
I did all those dumb exams and converted my FAA ATP to an EASA (UK) ATPL. Applied to a few places and saw some even charged you to interview! NOPE
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
They do love critiquing our “sloppy R/T technique”, though. So they’ve got that.
ahw01
Well-Known Member
Gotta do your radiotelephony exam for sure yah
Regulation, labor, work rules and actually… geography. We’re one big country instead of a handful of independent nations, each with varying labor laws. ULCC’s like RyanAir can basically lay waste to an entire continent and multiple nations whereas the downward pressure is largely on the domestic market here and it takes A LOT more to attack the high margin international markets.
I think.
I just woke up and I have no evidence of any of the above.
I think.
I just woke up and I have no evidence of any of the above.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Probably less pressure to increase wages when most of the euro zone has nationalized health care and pension programs plus other social nets.
Truth. Plus so many things are built-in to life over there.
I have a friend in Switzerland, though, a few bottles of wine during Expovina explained what his tax base gets him in terms of healthcare, retirement, social services and education compared to the US and here it’s just ‘a la carts’.
If he gets sick, he goes to the doctor.
If I get sick, even though I’m insured, it’s a visit to urgent care because my primary care provider is booked-out for weeks, so take on some more money for ‘concierge care’ if you want to actually see a real doctor in a timely fashion.
I have a friend in Switzerland, though, a few bottles of wine during Expovina explained what his tax base gets him in terms of healthcare, retirement, social services and education compared to the US and here it’s just ‘a la carts’.
If he gets sick, he goes to the doctor.
If I get sick, even though I’m insured, it’s a visit to urgent care because my primary care provider is booked-out for weeks, so take on some more money for ‘concierge care’ if you want to actually see a real doctor in a timely fashion.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I mean just not having the expense of gas and a payment on a late model pickup/SUV/sports car and driving 20 minutes out of the cul de sac to get to the grocery store/go to the gym/pick up the kids from school helps too I’m sure. Certainly it’s possible to live that life here too but my completely unscientific research of captains I fly with says most of us….don’t.
All this isn’t to say that all the other things about the whipsawing/race to then bottom etc aren’t also factors.
ahw01
Well-Known Member
Landing fees. It’s all down to that…
///AMG
Well-Known Member
They warned us, universal health care/ACA was socialism, and that gets you Canada. And lots of unknowably accurate anecdotes from "a friend" in Canada who has to wait weeks to be seen for whatever. My wife can get our kids seen today if they need to be. But I live in a small town. You live in a big metro. Our pay to play system is not helping anyone. We have some friends who joined a healthcare co-op, where you just pay out of pocket up front. They are seen immediately, everywhere. And then the co-op reimburses whatever stuff their plan covers (the typical amount of coverage from any regular health care/insurance policy generally)
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Like you, I was skeptical of the anecdotal story on Canadian healthcare. No developed country could be AFU like that, right?
Then I had a ride with several other people on a shared van. Had to book it to go pick up a vehicle. Just 8 random people and I was minding my own business.
The two people behind me struck up a conversation. Young lady was visiting from Europe, while the gentleman was from Canada, but with a work permit living in the States. She was asking about living in the US vs Canada. I couldn’t help but overhear.
He was pretty agnostic on the tax part. “You pay now, or you pay later, nothing is free”. But he was especially bitter about the wait time for care in Canada. Even the simplest imaging, like a CT or ultrasound the wait is out into the months. Visiting a specialist is a huge PITA involving years of wait. During COVID, the entire primary care system simply collapsed with people waiting years, and doctors simply walking away from the profession.
The rest of the conversation veered into the cost of living in Canada, which has been on a Falcon 9 Heavy ride into orbit. Home ownership is simply out of reach for just about anyone considered middle class.
He concluded that he won’t ever go back.
Now this is a story about someone else telling a story, so take from it what you will. But I’ve heard enough first hand accounts to guess that at least some parts of it are in that orbit.
Now, I live in an area with lots of medical services, but also a lot of people who use the s4!t out of them. Huge megalopolis of 7 million people in a 3 county area. I’ve never waited more a week for an appointment, but if time was the essence, I was always seen in 2-3 days. Unless it was super specialized, most of my imaging appointments started with “we can see you tomorrow, does that work?”. I don’t use any recurring meds, but what Rx I have gotten has been waiting for me at the grocery pharmacy on the way home, with a token copay.
I did sign up for a Concierge medicine program, but that’s mostly for convenience.
Are there problems with healthcare in the US? Certainly, but quality and availability isn’t among those. The problems that exist are generated by the dudebros who make existence a PITA in all fields, not just medicine.
I know we don’t like the use the T word about there, but one of the things he did do was to push through a “truth in advertising” law that forces health care networks to publish their prices. That was fought bitterly by the health networks, which tells you all you need to know.
There is a metric eff ton of companies out there that all they do is make money on the flow of money, like ticks. They add no value, treat no patients, cure no disease. The problem is that it’s just like every other case of OPM, people don’t want to watch or care where the money goes. The same is true for student loans, other kinds of insurance, and many other areas.
There is a middle ground solution out there.
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