US Airways pilots' seniority disputes may muddle merger

[derg]

The NWA/Delta lists were very similar, however the Legacy Delta folks think they are superior . There were some fences for the 777's and 747s. The issue that USAPA is going to have when they make their argument is that they have practically no wide body airplanes.

Expect to see a relative list integration between USAPA/APA (with the America West guys FINALLY getting what they were awarded) with five year fences on the widebodies.

We had 300% more buttons, fool!

 

[Bumblebee]

I imagine once the 73 captains can upgrade then they all could upgrade from that seniority?

 

[Seggy]

We had 300% more buttons, fool!

And call signs! What is yours?

 

[derg]

And call signs! What is yours?

"Greg".

 

[Bumblebee]

gimmee.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Then blend in a few guys in his situation that convince themselves "Goodbye, 737, hello 747-400!" and then you have the seeds of discontent.

Good things come to those who wait.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

"Greg".

If you happen to see Buzzard today, tell him it's not too late to fly the Brasilia.

 

[derg]

If you happen to see Buzzard today, tell him it's not too late to fly the Brasilia.

??

 

[derg]

"Greg".

Or "Rob".

Some idiots think "oh brown guy, it's gotta be..." even though we have 11,000 pilots, many of which don't look like "American Dad" with mustaches.

 

[CFIscare]

Ok, suppose an airline has been around since the 1920s and today with 6,000 pilots. However, this company has stagnated and not had an active pilot hired since 1990. Assume for agument sake that the guys hired in the 90s are furloughed. Also suppose that this airline has twice been in bankruptcy and nearly liquidated.

Now suppose an airline that started in 1984. They are a smaller size than the above airline, with about 140 airplanes. This airline grew a lot, but the significant growth came in the 90s and 2000s. Therefore, the overwhelming majority of these pilots were hired in the 90s and 2000s. Their most junior Captain was hired in 1999, and the year right now is 2005. That's a 6 year upgrade. Now also suppose that this airline, for all practical purposes, merged with the company above, saving the company above from liquidation!

Now what's fair?

The previous mentioned company nearly died (liquidation) and that would have ended everyone's career. The new airline that merged with them provided the lifeline necessary to keep afloat.

For merger, only 7% of active pilots of the second airline were hired prior to 1990. The majority, ~ 93% were hired after 1990. For the other airline, the majority (8-90% were hired before 1990) and assume that all their guys hired after 1990 were furloughed.

So according to your model of pure DOH, you are stapling the second airline. 93% would be placed under the entire other pilot group, effectively downgrading every single Captain and pushing the curren FOs even further. Is that "fair"?

Now consider original airline almost liquidated twice and WOULD have liquidated had the merger with the newer airline not happened. How does that come into play?

Also consider the 1990 furloughees at older airline. They haven't flown, they were hired, and furloughed. Some of them might not even be flying! You are going to give them DOH credit? For what? Never having flown at that airline?

Sorry, but these are (mostly) facts about the US Airways and AWA merger. A straight up DOH is a windfall, and that is not allowed. In any merger, because seniority varies greatly across different airlines, "career expectations" are suppose to be protected. That's why arbitrators do not use straight up DOH in their arbitration cases.

You are assuming that AWA would have been just fine if the merger had not happened. Parker and Kirby themselves have stated this not to be true.

Also, what about the "furloughed" pilots that were working for MidAtlantic at the time of the merger. MidAtlantic was part of US Airways mainline, not a separate airline. It was on the same certificate and used the same call sign. Heck, it even said "Operated by US Airways" on the plane. Yet, these pilots were considered furloughed from US Airways at the time of the merger, and thrown to the bottom of the list.

My point being is that this is a lot more complicated than you make it out to be. Personally, I think both sides are wrong.

Of course, I think management should have stepped in from the very beginning. However, this was not the case and we can all see how everything ended up.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You are assuming that AWA would have been just fine if the merger had not happened. Parker and Kirby themselves have stated this not to be true.

Also, what about the "furloughed" pilots that were working for MidAtlantic at the time of the merger. MidAtlantic was part of US Airways mainline, not a separate airline. It was on the same certificate and used the same call sign. Heck, it even said "Operated by US Airways" on the plane. Yet, these pilots were considered furloughed from US Airways at the time of the merger, and thrown to the bottom of the list.

My point being is that this is a lot more complicated than you make it out to be. Personally, I think both sides are wrong.

Of course, I think management should have stepped in from the very beginning. However, this was not the case and we can all see how everything ended up.

AWA would have been fine without US Airways, they likely could have found another merger partner. As for the MidAtlantic thing, that was the "Jets for Jobs" BS that was offered to the pilots. Ask a US Airways guy what they think about Jets4Jobs. And where are those MidAtlantic E1790s now? Republic Airlines. Should Republic pilots also have a spot on the list at US Airways? It doesn't matter. They were still furloughed from the US Air list despite flying a regional aircraft in some subsidiary.

Bottom line is, US Air AGREED to binding arbitration as did AWA. All the pilots took a risk, but it's binding arbitration, accept it and move on. They knew the risks involved. IMO, the Nicolau award was about as "fair" as it could get considering the vast differences in the pilot group and fleet types. The top 500 US Air guys were at the top of the list, so the precious A330 spots were still saved for them. Then the rest you'd have to ask the indidual guy but most US Air guys felt screwed. But what did they expect merging with a group that was relatively new (1984-2005)? Category/class method was about as "fair" as it was going to get. They got pissy, threw out ALPA, and formed USAPA. Democracy vote, but the East guys outnumbered the West, so democracy doesn't work when it's two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So in the situation you described, how long would the senior 737 guy not be allowed to bid up to 777? Eventually he may want to, so how long is fair? 3 yrs? 5 yrs?

There's no time limits. He's just slotted in at the same spot as 737 pilots from the other airline, and then whenever his number comes up, he can bid it.

Putting restrictions on bidding certain aircraft types usually doesn't work out too well. That's called fences, and it was used extensively in the Roberts Award at NWA/Republic. Arbitrator Roberts essentially merged the lists by DOH, but then put a series of elaborate fences in place to try to make a square peg (DOH) fit into a round hole. The result was something like 26 arbitrations and two decades of seething hatred. Some guys still aren't over it, even though the fences dropped years ago.

 

[derg]

We have a three (five?) year fence on the 777 and the 747.

However, something like if there was a bid and bid eligible pilots (DL for the 777, FNWA for the 747) then the fence went down early.

Or something like that.

The 747 and 777 don't go all that many cool places so no one really cares.

The A330 and the 767-400 seem to be where all of the action is. Pays relatively well and you don't have to worry about doing LA turns.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

We have a three (five?) year fence on the 777 and the 747.

However, something like if there was a bid and bid eligible pilots (DL for the 777, FNWA for the 747) then the fence went down early.

Or something like that.

The 747 and 777 don't go all that many cool places so no one really cares.

The A330 and the 767-400 seem to be where all of the action is. Pays relatively well and you don't have to worry about doing LA turns.

LA turns must = bad/headache?

 

[CFIscare]

AWA would have been fine without US Airways, they likely could have found another merger partner.

Maybe, maybe not. All we can go on is what AWA's former management said about their own ability to compete without the merger and how one of their two hubs was shut down soon after the merger. It is no secret that most of their revenue and profits come from the former "east" operation. It is also my opinion that it would have been highly unlikely that they would have found another merger partner, or at least once worthwhile. Besides US Airways, which was weak and vulnerable at the time, AWA didn't offer anything valuable to any of the other airlines. If I remember correctly, even ATA turned them down, instead choosing a partnership with SWA, before their demise.

I'm not trying to take anything away from AWA, they ran a decent operation and I am a big fan of their management team and I'm excited to see what they can do with AA. But to say they "would have been fine" is, in my opinion, a mistake.

As for the MidAtlantic thing, that was the "Jets for Jobs" BS that was offered to the pilots.

It was more complicated than the "Jets for Jobs BS". The fact of the matter is that pilots were recalled to "US Airways" (many from the Jets for Jobs programs at airlines such as Mesa) to operate aircraft that was owned by US Airways mainline, operating under the US Airways mainline certificate, using the US Airways mainline call sign, and working with crews that also worked for US Airways mainline... but somehow were not considered mainline by many, including Nicolau???

And where are those MidAtlantic E1790s now? Republic Airlines. Should Republic pilots also have a spot on the list at US Airways?

Completely separate situations.

They were still furloughed from the US Air list despite flying a regional aircraft in some subsidiary.

As mentioned above, that is debatable.

Bottom line is, US Air AGREED to binding arbitration as did AWA. All the pilots took a risk, but it's binding arbitration, accept it and move on. They knew the risks involved. IMO, the Nicolau award was about as "fair" as it could get considering the vast differences in the pilot group and fleet types. The top 500 US Air guys were at the top of the list, so the precious A330 spots were still saved for them. Then the rest you'd have to ask the indidual guy but most US Air guys felt screwed. But what did they expect merging with a group that was relatively new (1984-2005)? Category/class method was about as "fair" as it was going to get. They got pissy, threw out ALPA, and formed USAPA. Democracy vote, but the East guys outnumbered the West, so democracy doesn't work when it's two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner.

While I don't agree with how they handled the situation, what they did (and are doing) is not illegal and because neither you nor I are in their shoes, it would not be fair to say that their fight is not worth it. While I do feel bad for the former AWA guys, I also feel bad the "east" guys too and I can understand why they took such drastic actions. While it is fair for the AWA guys to fight for what they believe is right, I also believe it is fair for the "east" guys to do the same. They should have that opportunity to do it.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Maybe, maybe not. All we can go on is what AWA's former management said about their own ability to compete without the merger and how one of their two hubs was shut down soon after the merger. It is no secret that most of their revenue and profits come from the former "east" operation. It is also my opinion that it would have been highly unlikely that they would have found another merger partner, or at least once worthwhile. Besides US Airways, which was weak and vulnerable at the time, AWA didn't offer anything valuable to any of the other airlines. If I remember correctly, even ATA turned them down, instead choosing a partnership with SWA, before their demise.

Arbitrators don't consider hypotheticals, nor should they. The fact of the matter is, USAirways was dead. They had a few days of cash left, and then it was Chapter 7. Their only hope was a merger with AWA. And while you could argue that AWA didn't have a bright future, that's speculative. Therefore, when it comes to seniority integration, the USAirways pilots essentially had no career expectations, and the AWA pilots had the career expectations that retirement-based attrition afforded them. The USAirways pilots were lucky that Nicolau treated them as well as he did, frankly.

It was more complicated than the "Jets for Jobs BS". The fact of the matter is that pilots were recalled to "US Airways" (many from the Jets for Jobs programs at airlines such as Mesa) to operate aircraft that was owned by US Airways mainline, operating under the US Airways mainline certificate, using the US Airways mainline call sign, and working with crews that also worked for US Airways mainline... but somehow were not considered mainline by many, including Nicolau???

They were on a separate seniority list. Their status on the USAirways seniority list was "furloughed." Their status on another list is irrelevant.

As mentioned above, that is debatable.

Not really. Not if you're being intellectually honest, anyway.

While I don't agree with how they handled the situation, what they did (and are doing) is not illegal and because neither you nor I are in their shoes, it would not be fair to say that their fight is not worth it. While I do feel bad for the former AWA guys, I also feel bad the "east" guys too and I can understand why they took such drastic actions. While it is fair for the AWA guys to fight for what they believe is right, I also believe it is fair for the "east" guys to do the same. They should have that opportunity to do it.

They made an agreement to live by binding arbitration. When you sign your name to something and vow to live by it, then refuse to do so, that makes you slime. There is nothing admirable or "right" about what they're doing. It's despicable.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

LA turns must = bad/headache?

Oh, the humanity. *rolls eyes*

 

[CFIscare]

Arbitrators don't consider hypotheticals, nor should they. The fact of the matter is, USAirways was dead. They had a few days of cash left, and then it was Chapter 7. Their only hope was a merger with AWA. And while you could argue that AWA didn't have a bright future, that's speculative. Therefore, when it comes to seniority integration, the USAirways pilots essentially had no career expectations, and the AWA pilots had the career expectations that retirement-based attrition afforded them. The USAirways pilots were lucky that Nicolau treated them as well as he did, frankly.

I disagree with how previous service should be treated, but I will admit that that is my personal feelings.

They were on a separate seniority list. Their status on the USAirways seniority list was "furloughed." Their status on another list is irrelevant.

It's been a few years, but I seem to recall that a US Airways executive testified in court that the MidAtlantic pilots were in fact considered recalled to US Airways.

Not really. Not if you're being intellectually honest, anyway.

See above.

They made an agreement to live by binding arbitration. When you sign your name to something and vow to live by it, then refuse to do so, that makes you slime. There is nothing admirable or "right" about what they're doing. It's despicable.

While I would never describe the situation as either "admirable" or even "right" (used in that context), as long as they precede legally, is that not their right in our judicial system?

Of course, in my opinion, the fact that if the Nicolau award was in place today, the most junior AWA pilot, who had only been on property for something like a week or two, and who was in ground school and had never flown a single revenue flight, would be able to be a captain now over pilots who were hired in the 80's at US Airways, is despicable.

 

[Jet]

Do any east guys post on here? I'm curious if they thought the merger was fair? If not, why did you do the same crap to the Shuttle guys a few years before? Why not anticipate your merger and offer a fair merger to the small Shuttle group knowing that you are setting precidence to your larger merger coming just a few years in the future?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I disagree with how previous service should be treated, but I will admit that that is my personal feelings.

Why should previous service have anything to do with a seniority integration? An integration deals with what you're bringing to the table here and now, not what you were theoretically bringing to the table when you were hired many years previously. Getting an upgrade as a result of a merger when you would have been completely out of work without the merger is a windfall.

It's been a few years, but I seem to recall that a US Airways executive testified in court that the MidAtlantic pilots were in fact considered recalled to US Airways.

Source? It doesn't really matter, since they weren't on the seniority list as active pilots, but I'm curious, as I don't remember that.

While I would never describe the situation as either "admirable" or even "right" (used in that context), as long as they precede legally, is that not their right in our judicial system?

No, not really. When you sign a legal document saying you're accepting binding arbitration, that should be it. Any legal wrangling after that is just unethical delay tactics.

Of course, in my opinion, the fact that if the Nicolau award was in place today, the most junior AWA pilot, who had only been on property for something like a week or two, and who was in ground school and had never flown a single revenue flight, would be able to be a captain now over pilots who were hired in the 80's at US Airways, is despicable.

Really? Remember, that USAirways pilot would be on the street without any job if it wasn't for the merger. He should be thanking his lucky stars that Nicolau was as generous as he was. I certainly wouldn't have been.

But it doesn't really matter what either of us think, because they agreed to binding arbitration. That's the only point that matters in any of this.