Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I think the term is "queep".
US Air Force Faces 500 Fighter Pilot Shortfall
- Thread starter PhilosopherPilot
- Start date
C-182 flyer
Well-Known Member
Except for Airwing Fallon, maybe some SFARP events, and when you are brand new and working on level three, when do you ever spend four hours planning and two hours debriefing a flight?
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I'd totally agree there are a lot of flights where you don't have that time requirement. Just meant that we do have those days, vs others who may never (or more rarely so). I would concur that the big times were as you mentioned and probably level IV depending on how seriously one takes it (which I did since I cared, and was also applying for the class at the time).
Lawman
Well-Known Member
So the Navy is better
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The Air Force debriefs within reach of a stocked bar...
Just saying the only place I've seen anything like that was the good old days in Germany, and even that doesn't happen anymore.
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Springer
Well-Known Member
I think you may be too young to remember the real good ole days in Germany when we used a currency called the deutschmark.
C-182 flyer
Well-Known Member
Every squadron I have been in has a bar.
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
It's an AF regulation dating back to WW1 that post-mission liquor be provided. It was taken from the Brits back when they thought alcohol made you warmer. Apparently an open cockpit biplane in the winter at 10000+ ft can get chilly.
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
Yet, the Navy couldn't follow a centuries old tradition of grog from the Royal Navy? Bloody Puritans.
Nope,
No one ever debriefs on a US Navy warship, when operating in a NATO task force you ALWAYs helo over to the Brit/Dutch/German/Spanish frigate and do your debriefs there then retire to the bar before you get to helo back to recover in the safety of your stateroom.
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
Trivia moment: Royal Navy grog is (was?) 130 proof so that if it spilled on the gunpowder, the soaked powder would still ignite.
milleR
Well-Known Member
Well technically, grog is the 4:1 mix of rum and water (1 quart water : 0.5 pint rum) with some form of citrus typically added. The rum might have been 130 proof but the grog certainly wasn't.
Fairly accurate. On the E-3 we had an 8.0 msn planning day with about 4 hours of briefing involved, then flew an 8.3, then an hour in maintenance debrief, an hour in mass debrief, and about an hour in the section specialized debrief.
Lather, rinse, repeat 7-10 times/month.
C-182 flyer
Well-Known Member
That sounds awful. What could you possibly talk about for 4 hours in a brief? An hour in maintenance post flight?
It's really four separate briefs that we tried to limit to 50 mins each.
When you've got 20+ folks on board doing seven different things to make one mission go, there's quite a bit of coordination to talk through.
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C-182 flyer
Well-Known Member
This is terribly long and was not my intent when I started, but I am stuck inside today.
The thing about Internet is it allows just a few people to become the voice of many. Whether discussing the daily routines or the whole experience of military flying, it varies widely from service to service and platform to platform. I believe there are people interested in joining to fly, and they come here to get advice which is often misguided.
It is not all terrible, but the are plenty of times that it sucks, really bad. There are bad leaders, bad policies, and bad schedules but I have seen a lot of people that were miserable only because they let themselves be miserable. If you are aspiring to be a commanding officer and are willing to do what it takes to get there, you very well may be miserable.
If you just want to join and fly for ten years (eight year commitment after getting winged) and then move to the airlines, there is nothing wrong with that. It does not have to be so altruistic, you can do it for personal gain. I always hear, "you are an officer first and pilot second." While that is true to a degree, it does not really happen until much later in your career, if you stick around that long. In the Navy, you will not even be around an enlisted member until about three years after joining. In your first fleet squadron, the most interaction will be as a division officer where your "ground" job will be to sign paperwork and just visit the shop. That will last three years when you will move on to the FRS/training command/weapons school/etc. where your interaction will be less or even non existent.
If you are trying to decide between military flying and taking the civilian route, you need to do a lot of investigating in multiple places before deciding. On one side, you could be flying single seat fighters and doing some really cool flying or you could suffer through being a CFI, aerial imaging pilot, or regional pilot before finally making it to a major airline. Just as a thought, I do not see any lieutenants or captains driving crappy cars, drinking crappy beer, eating ramen rather than going out to dinner, or worrying where their rent money is coming from. There is risk however, you could flunk out and still be locked into your contract or maybe you get selected for helos and not get the fixed wing time you need.
I can only speak as a Navy F/A-18 pilot, so here is pretty much what you could expect:
It will take you anywhere from three to four years to make it to your first fleet squadron. During this time you will probably work an average of twenty hours a week with periods of nothing to do scattered with times where you will get pushed and be pretty busy. On days where you are not scheduled, you go fishing or play golf or go to the beach, all while collecting a pay check. There is risk however, you need to balance your life so that you devote enough time to do well in training. For some that balance is minimal, others require much more study and practice.
In your first fleet squadron you will work more. You are at least expected to show up everyday, but at first your only job will be to learn tactics. That will last a short time or until they need a new schedule officer and then you will be tied to your desk everyday until the schedule gets signed. That will last about six months and then you will move on to being a division officer or NATOPS officer which will require minimum time unless an inspection is coming up. Once you are more senior, you may get the assistant ops o job which will again require some time, unless you are in a two seat squadron where an O-4 will do it.
In this first tour you are expected to get good at flying, not ground jobs. You will devote a ton of time to becoming a combat section lead, and after that you will be a trusted member of the squadron, capable of leading the new guy around. Depending on your timing, you could be in various stages of the work up and cruise cycle which could mean flying everyday or only a couple times a week. This also affects how many hours you work each week and how much time you are away from home.
Your second tour should be a "production" tour as some sort of instructor or test pilot. What you get here can vary greatly. As an FRS instructor you will have many pilots and WSOs in the squadron to share the few ground jobs, mostly some sort of ops job like schedules or a phase head. Not much time needed here to do your job unless you are writing the schedule. Here you will fly about four or five times a week and when you are not scheduled or have some work to do, you stay home or golf or fish or take your boat out. There will be plenty of time for leave.
The training command will be very similar to the FRS except you will fly twice a day, there are no enlisted members, and cross countries are abundant and funded. The weapons school jobs seem to be pretty relaxed except when there is an SFARP going on, but the jobs in Fallon will require significantly more time, but you know that going in and may have different career aspirations. I really cannot speak for either Pax River or China Lake (test guys).
Now you are eight to ten years in and this is where they get you. Your options are staying where you are and getting out (if your timing is good), going to a staff where you can be a guest pilot at the squadrons, being a "super JO" where you are a regular squadron member again, being a training officer in a squadron if you went to Fallon or a weapons school for your shore tour, or some random job that will get you past your commitment. If your goal was to do your requirement and get out, hopefully you have good timing, otherwise it may suck for a while and you may not be current when you get out. If you are staying in, that requires a different discussion.
All in all, you can have a great time, even on deployment, and be making close to $100,000 a year when you get out after ten years. Even the really bad nights behind the boat or on the KC-135, which may have taken years off of my life, are fun to talk about now. The port visits, oh, we will not talk about the port visits. I will be retiring with an O-5 retirement and about 4,000 total military hours, almost all of which is pilot in command, three tours as an instructor, and a masters degree that I got in residence, i.e. I got paid to be a college student. This path is a little abnormal but not impossible so individual experiences may vary.
Of course it is not for everyone and really I cannot say that one path is better than the other. I can say that I do not have to worry about flying a poorly maintained jet or getting pressured to fly in bad weather, although there may be some exceptions to the weather piece when operating off of the boat. A new tire and wheel assembly cost $25,000? Go ahead and give me two. Thunderstorms, let's cancel and go to the club for lunch.
The thing about Internet is it allows just a few people to become the voice of many. Whether discussing the daily routines or the whole experience of military flying, it varies widely from service to service and platform to platform. I believe there are people interested in joining to fly, and they come here to get advice which is often misguided.
It is not all terrible, but the are plenty of times that it sucks, really bad. There are bad leaders, bad policies, and bad schedules but I have seen a lot of people that were miserable only because they let themselves be miserable. If you are aspiring to be a commanding officer and are willing to do what it takes to get there, you very well may be miserable.
If you just want to join and fly for ten years (eight year commitment after getting winged) and then move to the airlines, there is nothing wrong with that. It does not have to be so altruistic, you can do it for personal gain. I always hear, "you are an officer first and pilot second." While that is true to a degree, it does not really happen until much later in your career, if you stick around that long. In the Navy, you will not even be around an enlisted member until about three years after joining. In your first fleet squadron, the most interaction will be as a division officer where your "ground" job will be to sign paperwork and just visit the shop. That will last three years when you will move on to the FRS/training command/weapons school/etc. where your interaction will be less or even non existent.
If you are trying to decide between military flying and taking the civilian route, you need to do a lot of investigating in multiple places before deciding. On one side, you could be flying single seat fighters and doing some really cool flying or you could suffer through being a CFI, aerial imaging pilot, or regional pilot before finally making it to a major airline. Just as a thought, I do not see any lieutenants or captains driving crappy cars, drinking crappy beer, eating ramen rather than going out to dinner, or worrying where their rent money is coming from. There is risk however, you could flunk out and still be locked into your contract or maybe you get selected for helos and not get the fixed wing time you need.
I can only speak as a Navy F/A-18 pilot, so here is pretty much what you could expect:
It will take you anywhere from three to four years to make it to your first fleet squadron. During this time you will probably work an average of twenty hours a week with periods of nothing to do scattered with times where you will get pushed and be pretty busy. On days where you are not scheduled, you go fishing or play golf or go to the beach, all while collecting a pay check. There is risk however, you need to balance your life so that you devote enough time to do well in training. For some that balance is minimal, others require much more study and practice.
In your first fleet squadron you will work more. You are at least expected to show up everyday, but at first your only job will be to learn tactics. That will last a short time or until they need a new schedule officer and then you will be tied to your desk everyday until the schedule gets signed. That will last about six months and then you will move on to being a division officer or NATOPS officer which will require minimum time unless an inspection is coming up. Once you are more senior, you may get the assistant ops o job which will again require some time, unless you are in a two seat squadron where an O-4 will do it.
In this first tour you are expected to get good at flying, not ground jobs. You will devote a ton of time to becoming a combat section lead, and after that you will be a trusted member of the squadron, capable of leading the new guy around. Depending on your timing, you could be in various stages of the work up and cruise cycle which could mean flying everyday or only a couple times a week. This also affects how many hours you work each week and how much time you are away from home.
Your second tour should be a "production" tour as some sort of instructor or test pilot. What you get here can vary greatly. As an FRS instructor you will have many pilots and WSOs in the squadron to share the few ground jobs, mostly some sort of ops job like schedules or a phase head. Not much time needed here to do your job unless you are writing the schedule. Here you will fly about four or five times a week and when you are not scheduled or have some work to do, you stay home or golf or fish or take your boat out. There will be plenty of time for leave.
The training command will be very similar to the FRS except you will fly twice a day, there are no enlisted members, and cross countries are abundant and funded. The weapons school jobs seem to be pretty relaxed except when there is an SFARP going on, but the jobs in Fallon will require significantly more time, but you know that going in and may have different career aspirations. I really cannot speak for either Pax River or China Lake (test guys).
Now you are eight to ten years in and this is where they get you. Your options are staying where you are and getting out (if your timing is good), going to a staff where you can be a guest pilot at the squadrons, being a "super JO" where you are a regular squadron member again, being a training officer in a squadron if you went to Fallon or a weapons school for your shore tour, or some random job that will get you past your commitment. If your goal was to do your requirement and get out, hopefully you have good timing, otherwise it may suck for a while and you may not be current when you get out. If you are staying in, that requires a different discussion.
All in all, you can have a great time, even on deployment, and be making close to $100,000 a year when you get out after ten years. Even the really bad nights behind the boat or on the KC-135, which may have taken years off of my life, are fun to talk about now. The port visits, oh, we will not talk about the port visits. I will be retiring with an O-5 retirement and about 4,000 total military hours, almost all of which is pilot in command, three tours as an instructor, and a masters degree that I got in residence, i.e. I got paid to be a college student. This path is a little abnormal but not impossible so individual experiences may vary.
Of course it is not for everyone and really I cannot say that one path is better than the other. I can say that I do not have to worry about flying a poorly maintained jet or getting pressured to fly in bad weather, although there may be some exceptions to the weather piece when operating off of the boat. A new tire and wheel assembly cost $25,000? Go ahead and give me two. Thunderstorms, let's cancel and go to the club for lunch.
Springer
Well-Known Member
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