Update on PC12 inflight breakup in FL

I wish spin recovery and upset recovery training were a required part of ALL the pilot PTS's from Private Pilot on up to Commercial and CFI.

It's kind of like guys who shoot competitively and do a lot of firearm training and take classes who don't have the first clue about battlefield first aid. You are participating in a sport/hobby that could potentially prove fatal if you aren't properly prepared for the worst case scenario of an accidental discharge and the applicable trauma that can follow. The same line of thought should apply to flying airplanes. Prepare for the worst case scenario. You don't have to be an expert, but just know the basics and it will save your life.
 
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Why? This should be investigated. No system should just fail randomly for no reason, especially on a repetitive basis. While masking a lack of pilot skill by using the AP all the time isn't good, you have to admit their problems started when the AP kicked off. If he didn't correct the bank right away, it could very well be that he never heard the tone/chime for the AP off. AF 447 shows 3 pilots can zone out a "STALL STALL STALL" 75 times when you aren't focusing on it. Letting the airplane continue banking beyond 30 degrees is unacceptable, but this is probably due to him trying to reset the AP system. Was that taught to him in sim? A procedure he invented on the fly?
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No, the problems started when he failed to monitor his airspeed such that it approached the approximate speed of stick shaker activation.
 
chrisreedrules said:
I wish spin recovery and upset recovery training were a required part of ALL the pilot PTS's from Private Pilot on up to Commercial and CFI.
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I agree entirely, and have been saying this for years. I think it's ridiculous that the FAA doesn't require spin recovery training from the beginning. Doesn't need to be part of the checkride, but it definitely should be done in training.
 
Mark815 said:
I agree entirely, and have been saying this for years. I think it's ridiculous that the FAA doesn't require spin recovery training from the beginning. Doesn't need to be part of the checkride, but it definitely should be done in training.
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My CFI wouldn't sign me off to take my private until we had spent the day spinning until we thought we would puke. He didn't care about requirements, he just wanted me to see it before I could take pax.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Incidentally, in my experience, yes, the autopilot was somewhat more likely to kick off in turbulence than some others I've flown, but in this case, the guy was flying at 24,000+ feet at 109 KIAS...I'm surprised it held on as long as it did. Laying this at the feet of the systems seems, eh, fanciful.
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I don't know what the PC12's speeds are in the climb to FL250. Someone mentioned it was 50 kts below. What's the profile?
 
chrisreedrules said:
I wish spin recovery and upset recovery training were a required part of ALL the pilot PTS's from Private Pilot on up to Commercial and CFI.

It's kind of like guys who shoot competitively and do a lot of firearm training and take classes who don't have the first clue about battlefield first aid. You are participating in a sport/hobby that could potentially prove fatal if you aren't properly prepared for the worst case scenario of an accidental discharge and the applicable trauma that can follow. The same line of thought should apply to flying airplanes. Prepare for the worst case scenario. You don't have to be an expert, but just know the basics and it will save your life.
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A lot airplanes that are certified for such maneuvering have vastly different stall/spin characteristics than the airplane you will be flying daily. There was an airline paying for guys to get upset training in an Extra 300. I can't see much of that translating to a transport category jet.

It is not like normal operations get us anywhere close to stall/spin scenarios. We aren't doing anything other than taking off, climbing, cruising, and landing.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
True, but again, led by the aforementioned AP disconnect and the (apparent) non-realization of that until much later.
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I didn't understand that the AP disconnect led this event.
My guess is that either the proximity of turbulence or the low airspeed LED to the AP disconnect. THEN it was in the hands of an inexperienced pilot.
 
Food for thought regarding the lack of training of the pilot. Two CRJ pilots crashed a perfectly good airplane a few years back due to a lack of understandi
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I don't know what the PC12's speeds are in the climb to FL250. Someone mentioned it was 50 kts below. What's the profile?
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159 knots. Duh.
 
Mark815 said:
I agree entirely, and have been saying this for years. I think it's ridiculous that the FAA doesn't require spin recovery training from the beginning. Doesn't need to be part of the checkride, but it definitely should be done in training.
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I always encouraged my students to do an intro aerobatic lesson with spins, loops, and rolls. A little time spent in some unusual attitudes teaches people that just because the airplane is upside down, does not mean it is time to panic. It still flies.

And I always made my student pilots memorize and demonstrate proper spin recovery in the 172. I feel it is a very important skill to have.
 
I've been out of the plane for a while, but it was 160 knots to 15,000, 150 to FL2000, 140 to FL250, 130 to FL300. I think this was a company profile vs the manufacturer.

If he was as heavy as I'm guessing he was, getting to FL250 would have right near the limits for the airplane.
 
mojo6911 said:
A lot airplanes that are certified for such maneuvering have vastly different stall/spin characteristics than the airplane you will be flying daily. There was an airline paying for guys to get upset training in an Extra 300. I can't see much of that translating to a transport category jet.

It is not like normal operations get us anywhere close to stall/spin scenarios. We aren't doing anything other than taking off, climbing, cruising, and landing.
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Well most pilots aren't getting into stall/spin accidents in commuter category aircraft (Colgan is the only recent one I can think of where it may have been averted to some degree by some stall/spin recovery training) I think it is more applicable to the average guy/gal with a commercial (or private/instrument) rating. It would probably save some lives of the pilots between 500 and 1500 hours too.
 
chrisreedrules said:
Well most pilots aren't getting into stall/spin accidents in commuter category aircraft (Colgan is the only recent one I can think of where it may have been averted to some degree by some stall/spin recovery training) I think it is more applicable to the average guy/gal with a commercial (or private/instrument) rating. It would probably save some lives of the pilots between 500 and 1500 hours too.
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The first time I stalled (and dropped a wing) it freaked me out a bit. I stopped flying the airplane for a few seconds and concentrated on the fact that I was falling out of the sky.

Stall/spin/aero de-sensitizes you to these things. Maybe that's the applicable part to transport-category airplanes? I truly don't know. It's just how the logic is playing out in my mind.
 
I usually climb in speed mode at 160 (book cruise climb speed) above 10K. That being said, Vy at FL250 is 110 knots...

Also, yesterday I did the CWS plus trigger pull to disengage the AP and not get a master caution. That seems like it's too "Hands on" since both hands have to be on the yoke and both hands have to be pressing buttons. Seems like too much work just to tell the lady "It's allright, I've got this."
 
gotWXdagain said:
I usually climb in speed mode at 160 (book cruise climb speed) above 10K. That being said, Vy at FL250 is 110 knots...

Also, yesterday I did the CWS plus trigger pull to disengage the AP and not get a master caution. That seems like it's too "Hands on" since both hands have to be on the yoke and both hands have to be pressing buttons. Seems like too much work just to tell the lady "It's allright, I've got this."
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I think that's the point of it. The more hands on you have to be to disconnect the AP, the less warnings it gives you. When you use the CWS, AP Disc and the trigger, it makes no sound.
 
Mark815 said:
I think that's the point of it. The more hands on you have to be to disconnect the AP, the less warnings it gives you. When you use the CWS, AP Disc and the trigger, it makes no sound.
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I wish you could just hold the trigger for a couple seconds to override the cautions. The tone isn't so bad but having to reset the master caution every time is annoying. I like to hand fly from higher up during descent so I usually keep the FD and Yaw Damper active, but if you hit the thumb button you lose those and have to reset.
 
I think the report says he was in IMC. My suspicion is that the pilot did not have confidence in his own instrument flying abilities in IMC, thus the dependence on A/P. When that failed, his Ist reaction was test the autopilot instead of flying the airplane. The spin/ unusual attitude began in IMC and so he was already doomed since he seems to not have been confident about flying on the gauges in the 1st place. Spin training in this scenario would have done him no good since his problem was basic instrument flying.
 
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